Pride goes before a fall?

[bastet]

I had a somewhat salutory experience yesterday which I'm still mulling over.

Having been dancing AT for over 4 years now I've been feeling that I had got past the most gruesomely difficult bits - you know, the excruciating dances where you just kick each other's toes, your back hurts and the music ends halfway through a figure. (Well, maybe not those, quite.) People ask me for repeat dances and the local beginners respectfully ask my opinion. I have the occasional private lesson and try to develop along the lines of advice given. Things have been going OK.

Until yesterday. At a local milonga I was asked to dance by the lady teacher, who I've danced with before and remembered as a gentle, subtle, playful and musical leader as well as being an effective teacher. As the dance progressed, it became clear that she was having enormous difficulty in leading me. Or was I having difficulty following her? I'm not sure. She made a few tactful and sensible suggestions but essentially, it was the worst dance I've had for ages, and probably for her too.

My first thought was that I should take some lessons with her and try to sort out the things that were going wrong as it bugs me to be defeated and if i need to learn things I want to learn them. My second thought was that I generally don't have problems being led by other leaders so why would I be worrying unduly? I am aware, however, that much of my dancing is done with leaders who are probably less experienced than me so may not be demanding much of me and allowing me to become complacent. So i don't know whether I can write this off as a temporary incompatibility or whether I've been given a glimpse of previously unimagined levels of subtlety in the dance and need to raise my game.

Has anyone else experienced this sense of suddenly hitting an invisible barrier? What made you realise it and what did you ?

You are a follower who was folling a follower?

What i find is that often (with the exception of one lady teacher in town who leads and has a very powerful lead) that following other followers is sucha different feeling that you have to get used to it, just like anyone else.

If you are mainly used to following people who primarily LEAD, then I think itcan take you by surprose. I've found that follows who lead are often fairly subtle, and that may take adjustment on your part.

It was probably a bad night, or you just aren't used to it. I'd say if you dance repeatedly with them and it's repeatedly bad, then you may have to find out if you are both using different techniques that aren't meshing well or something.

Good luck! This too shall pass....

 

[bastet]

Leading in a class is very different. I can lead a step quite well in a class i order to teach it, show it , break it down, whatever. For one thing, there's no navigating when you are demonstrating a move! Everyone else in the room is watching you and making sure to stay out of the way.

You also are concentrating on that move in order to be teaching it.. you aren't deciding in the blink of an eye what move to do. The real test of leading ability is on the dance floor, not being able to teach the lead for certain things in a lesson. Knowing in principle what to do and demonstrating those principles in a controlled enviroment is very different from applying them freely at a milonga.

Zoops is right. Leading in a class is way dfferent than a milonga, especially a crowded one.

 

[Captain Jep]

Id just like to point out something. Just because someone teaches tango, it doesnt mean that they are necessarily a versatile and competent social dancer. All it means is they know how to dance competently with their dance partner. You've obviously travelled for tango outside the local area and possibly have danced in a lot more places than your teacher. So who actually is the more experienced dancer?

 

[Zoopsia59]

I was having problems with the frame and using my right arm, which was moving too far back in relation to my body so it was harder for her to transmit the lead. I don't usually have problems with frame but have been trying to work on keeping my right arm relaxed (on the insistence of another teacher) so maybe some confusion has set in there.

(I still can't see how i can maintain my arm in a consistent relation to my body without using some muscle tone and creating some compression, but there it is. I'm told it has to come from the deltoids, not the arm. But that's another disussion question!)

It may be another discussion, but I'll address it anyway since you brought it up. Relaxing the arm does not mean allowing your SHOULDER to be manipulated in relation to your body. Your arm can hinge some at the elbow because it is relaxed. (your wrist should be hinging also) But you shoulder needs to stay in a correct alignment with your chest.

Its very hard (if you think about it) to let your arm get pushed past your shoulder WITHOUT your shoulder being affected. IF you hold your shoulder firm and strong (not tense and rigid) with your chest expanded and upward, your arm and hand in "dance position" aren't going to get pushed behind you even if your elbow is relaxed.

So if you were having trouble with your arm getting too far back, its because you let your shoulder go back too or even twisted in your torso (the other shoulder coming forward) I can see that this would make you difficult to lead.

Keep in mind that there is a difference between being rigid vs giving enough resistance to feel a lead. There is a difference between being relaxed and being floppy and noodle-y. Your legs are relaxed and that's why they can respond to quick leads in unexpected directions or to boleos. But you still have control of them despite their being relaxed. A relaxed arm does not mean that the leader is just swinging your arm around like big wet noodle.

 

[bastet]

Ah well, yes, it was a very small milonga! Most people were wearing jeans and trainers, and were near-beginners just practising, having just finished a lesson. There was no need to stand upon ceremony!

I can't be too sure but she leads a lot while teaching, and seems confident. I've danced with her before and enjoyed it. She did have that very soft, delicate quality that female leads often have, which makes me feel like a carthorse, even though I'm not large and am usually reasonably easy to lead.

She did a lot of small back steps in the walk, musical but quick, which i wasn't always picking up. I was often on the wrong foot. The embrace and head position seemed problematic - maybe I was a bit nervous about dancing in close embrace with a woman? I was having problems with the frame and using my right arm, which was moving too far back in relation to my body so it was harder for her to transmit the lead. I don't usually have problems with frame but have been trying to work on keeping my right arm relaxed (on the insistence of another teacher) so maybe some confusion has set in there. I wasn't jerked around but I guess the leads were unclear - to me - possibly in the same way that the moon and stars are unclear to a blind man. Perhaps I lacked to ability to pick them up? That is how I felt, anyway. It was different from the kind of unclearness that I get when dancing with a novice leader, for example.

(I still can't see how i can maintain my arm in a consistent relation to my body without using some muscle tone and creating some compression, but there it is. I'm told it has to come from the deltoids, not the arm. But that's another disussion question!)

Maybe get some clarification....I've been down this road myself. For some time someone (or more than one) thought my arm was tense and asked me to relax it....so I did...then they said it was too noodley...so that didn't work...but what they were ACTUALLY trying to say was that my arm was tensing up (because it was being held out nearly straight from my body) and I subconsciously kept trying to retract it to a more comfortable position a little closer to me...which led ot tension, which led to tensing my arm and shoulder...which led to the leader feeling I was pulling...which led to....maybe you need clarification, and maybe there's a good reason you are having tension....it's not always a matter of "fault", but possibly of 2 warring preferences.

 

[dchester]

She did a lot of small back steps in the walk, musical but quick, which i wasn't always picking up. I was often on the wrong foot. The embrace and head position seemed problematic - maybe I was a bit nervous about dancing in close embrace with a woman? I was having problems with the frame and using my right arm, which was moving too far back in relation to my body so it was harder for her to transmit the lead. I don't usually have problems with frame but have been trying to work on keeping my right arm relaxed (on the insistence of another teacher) so maybe some confusion has set in there. I wasn't jerked around but I guess the leads were unclear - to me - possibly in the same way that the moon and stars are unclear to a blind man. Perhaps I lacked to ability to pick them up? That is how I felt, anyway. It was different from the kind of unclearness that I get when dancing with a novice leader, for example.

From the description you have given, and based on my personal experiences, it was one of two things, either you were having a terrible day following (worse than a typical new beginner), or the leader wasn't all that good at leading the rock steps. Guess which one I'm leaning to (hint: the problem more than likely wasn't you).

 

[TangoTricia]

It may be that you never manage to disentangle all those possibilities, though the pointers everyone has contributed here seem pretty sound to me. One thing that I am sure of, though, is that any unsolicited feedback says more about the person giving it, than the person receiving it. In tango, as in life.

Which doesn't rule out that there may be something for you to learn from it. It's just not necessarily going to be the original message you received.

 

[bordertangoman]

I think this may have been three possible things;

1. A general incongruity; there are just people out there who you dont click with on the dance floor.
2. I (as a leader) have been led by women and I have not found it an enjoyable experience
compared to being lead by men. Their leading has been a bit "fluffy". But even with relative newbies of six months or so lead small quick steps is not a problem.
3. It was just a bad experience.

 

[newbie]

Having been dancing AT for over 4 years now I've been feeling that I had got past the most gruesomely difficult bits...

Reading this, I figured that you were a leader. But after four years of following, yes you should be able to follow what this teacher leads. She probably tried with you the steps that she usually leads to followers who have the same number of years in tango. Maybe you remain too much in your comfort zone when in a milonga, that is maybe you dance too much with the same leaders who repeat the same steps and you feel comfortable.

 

[Mladenac]

Has anyone else experienced this sense of suddenly hitting an invisible barrier? What made you realise it and what did you ?

Sometimes when I dance with my regular partners have a bad tanda.

Maybe you or your teacher has some residual effect of other dancer.

Sometimes I dance with other teacher followers.
And although they are teachers that doesn't make them good followers for me.
Sometimes you just don't get the person.

When I was started dancing with some girls we couldn't adapt at first.
The more we danced together we adapted more.

Don't get so anxious, a few pieces of advice are not reason for taking lessons.

 

[Peaches]

Could be you and she were having an off day. It happens. Could be that as you've progressed you just don't mesh with her leading. It happens. *shrug* Seems pretty normal to me.

The unsolited feedback isn't cool, but it could be worth giving it another try (on a good night) to see if it works. (Or to maybe identify the problem.)

 

[Dave Bailey]

Blimey, where'd this thread come from?

{snip} I wasn't jerked around but I guess the leads were unclear - to me - possibly in the same way that the moon and stars are unclear to a blind man.

If this were a male leader, the answer would be obvious - he was not leading you well. If you couldn't understand his lead, then he would have been by definition leading poorly. So I don't think we should adopt a different position simply because it's a woman leading.

So my opinion is that - for whatever reason - her leading just wasn't good enough at that point. She's the leader, she has the responsibility first and foremost to be clear.

Sure, there may have been "chemistry" issues for whatever reason - but a good leader will adjust for that, and still manage to work through to get a reasonable dance. Hell, "if all else fails, get into close embrace and just walk" works fine for me as a strategy.

It's more than likely that she lacked confidence, and the fact that you didn't initially "gell" caused more problems, and caused her to lose confidence further. A lot of the trick to being a clear lead is to be confident - if you start losing that, it can go downhill rapidly.

Finally, I've danced with you, and you were a great follower a year ago. As I very much doubt you've got worse in the past year, don't beat yourself up. At worst, all you did was pick up on her lack of confidence as a leader.

 

[Wanderer2]

She did a lot of small back steps in the walk, musical but quick, which i wasn't always picking up. I was often on the wrong foot. The embrace and head position seemed problematic...

In addition to all the other - very valid - comments, this could indicate that she tried to dance Traspie-like in double (multiple) speed steps, but failed to lead it correctly by mixing up the leading possibilities:
- either de-couple the leaders feet and lead the follower in normal speed,
- transmit the speed by a strong connection and adapt immedialtely to synchronisation problems.

It takes very long to get that right...

Wanderer

 

[Mladenac]

@Wanderer great post

You didn't write whether she wore high heels, or some regular shoes.

What kind of dance you were dancing (tango, milonga, vals).

She was probably leading that you are not aware of, or she is not clear in.
The first could be more possible cause you were quite surprised on those little steps.
how she was leading those small steps?

Sometimes it is not intended that you always follow leader's steps e.g. syncopation.
I saw some videos when leader is dancing on one melody, follower on another, or on rhyhtm.

 

[Madahlia]

@Wanderer great post

You didn't write whether she wore high heels, or some regular shoes.

Regular dance trainers.

What kind of dance you were dancing (tango, milonga, vals).

OMG, my head was in a spin - I don't know! They were songs I hadn't heard before. When I'm under pressure, musicality tends to take a back seat.

She was probably leading that you are not aware of, or she is not clear in.
The first could be more possible cause you were quite surprised on those little steps.
how she was leading those small steps?

Sometimes it is not intended that you always follow leader's steps e.g. syncopation.
I saw some videos when leader is dancing on one melody, follower on another, or on rhyhtm.

She did intend me to follow her steps - but I couldn't do so fluently. I think it was due to difficulties with the frame, a very gentle lead, and me being tense and getting tenser by the second!

Hell, "if all else fails, get into close embrace and just walk" works fine for me as a strategy.

If anything, this would have the opposite effect for me. I could follow the dance more easily when she opened out the embrace, probably because the frame became clearer and more stable - so that gives me a few pointers for close embrace. I can usually cope with walking though.

P.S. I know all the received wisdom about connecting more directly through Close Embrace etc etc and I'm happy with it but if there's any problems, of any sort, I'd rather be safely at arm's length!

Lots of people have taken exception to the unsolicited feedback - though I didn't. The event was really not much more than a practica, and she needed to confer with me because the dance was being so problematic for whatever reason. It didn't come over as a putdown or inappropriate, and I'm sure her intention was helpful. It was pleasant of her to offer to lead me at all, as teachers usually don't. I think her original intention was to ensure that visitors to the club left having had a nice time. and I appreciated that effort.