Problems I encountered with Begginer-type classes. Any thoughts?

[labachata]

Lots of students want to learn patterns much more than technique. My former (and possibly once again) teacher (I hope to have two teachers! ) said that when he first started teaching, he wanted to focus on technique and students would quit. This was true both in group or private.

That may be true and would be unfortunate, if true. Not convinced it is, though.

Also, enforcing good technique is relatively difficult in group classes.

No, it's not. If you do 5 steps instead of 50 during a class do you know what happens? You have A LOT more time to spend on each step. Let's say we do 2 kinds of basic, 2 turns and a body roll. You can get into a LOT of technique during that 1 hour. You can get most newbs doing it at least "kind of right" in that hour. If you do a 30 step routine, then obviously you're right - forget it, it will be a cluster*.

Anyway, the main goal of many beginning students is to get on the dance floor and survive with a few patterns that get them around.

Also you:

Lots of students want to learn patterns much more than technique. My former (and possibly once again) teacher (I hope to have two teachers! ) said that when he first started teaching, he wanted to focus on technique and students would quit. This was true both in group or private.

Which is it? They want many patterns or a few? You're contradicting yourself.

Also, I think you're kind of missing the fact that I'm talking about beginner classes. You're talking about intermediate and maybe that applies to you but it does not apply to me or what I'm trying to discuss here. The thread is about beginner classes, not intermediate.

 

[labachata]

Someone's convinced you're serious so I'll entertain this

I cannot understand your complain, labachata.

If you're being honest, that's unfortunate because I think the complain is rather clear and easy to understand and I've done a good job of articulating it.

If the teacher would insist correcting the basic, the students immediately would leave the class. The teacher instead gives them the illusion they are advanced dancers. This guarantees his income. The teacher is ok, the students are to blame.

Maybe your theory on students' preferences is correct, I'm not sure. I think at least a good number of BEGINNERS want to learn a few steps rather than many. I don't know the %s and neither do you as a scientific study would need to be done to determine dominant preferences. We can only guess without data. If the teacher is loading the students with steps and patterns knowing full well they end up doing them all (or most) incorrectly and he's doing that to simply maintain his income - that is unethical - and NOT "OK". He's not "OK" if he's in fact doing that. Students can be forgiven because they are newbs who don't know what's good for them - he cannot.

Also you have booked this class, you have fueled this situation, YOU are responsible

LOL. Utterly, ridiculous. Doesn't warrant an extended response.

 

[snapdancer]

Since you're in an environment with a bunch of beginners, you are well positioned to do your own research on the issue. Sound out your classmates, being subtle about it, and find out whether they value number of patterns with less technique VS fewer patterns with more technique.

 

[lucia_l]

Which is it? They want many patterns or a few? You're contradicting yourself.

I have not contradicted myself. Lots of beginners want more patterns.

Also, I think you're kind of missing the fact that I'm talking about beginner classes.

No. I'm not missing that. Intermediate students tend to want technique because that's when they realize it matters. Lots of beginners --- which is what you are talking about-- want to learn patterns.

You're talking about intermediate and maybe that applies to you but it does not apply to me or what I'm trying to discuss here. The thread is about beginner classes, not intermediate.

Yes. I'm saying beginners often want patterns.
I'm a bit surprised that while saying you are a beginner,, which by definition means you don't have much experience meeting other beginners over a long time, you are trying to tell me that based on your very, very limited experience, you know what lots of beginners want. I realize you know what you want. But that doesn't mean it's what lots of beginners want.

It is, in fact, commonly observed that many beginners quit lessons if they contain too much technique. I'm all for few patterns but rest assured that even with 5 patterns, a teacher can spend the vast majority of time discussing the pattern with a very modest amount of technique.

I'm all for lessons containing fewer patterns and more technique. I prefer those. Certainly, many beginners would be better of with 5 patterns rather than 50in a lesson. But I also I honestly doubt you are finding any lessons doing 50 patterns. An entire bronze syllabus for typical dances does not contain 50 patterns. This one contains 22:

Learn to dance Salsa with Ballroomdancers.com!

It's unlikely teachers are covering the entire 22 in one lesson even if they seem to be covering 50 or even 70 patterns to you.

Having said all that: if you don't like a particular set of lessons, find another teacher. If you don't like a restaurant, find another one. If you don't like a clothing shop, find a different one. That's your main recourse.

 

[labachata]

I have not contradicted myself. Lots of beginners want more patterns.

And you also said beginners want a few patterns. How is that not contradicting yourself?

I'm a bit surprised that while saying you are a beginner,, which by definition means you don't have much experience meeting other beginners over a long time, you are trying to tell me that based on your very, very limited experience, you know what lots of beginners want.

Please show me where I said I know what they want. Do you know what they want? Because somehow you've managed to say that they want few and many patterns in the same post.

I'm all for lessons containing fewer patterns and more technique. I prefer those. Certainly, many beginners would be better of with 5 patterns rather than 50in a lesson. But I also I honestly doubt you are finding any lessons doing 50 patterns. An entire bronze syllabus for typical dances does not contain 50 patterns. This one contains 22:

Well, I'm not sure what a pattern is. What I mean is "elements". Like full-basic. this kind of turn, that kind of turn. etc. What's the right word? "steps"? "moves"? Is a pattern a combination of steps/moves?

Having said all that: if you don't like a particular set of lessons, find another teacher. If you don't like a restaurant, find another one. If you don't like a clothing shop, find a different one. That's your main recourse.

Correct. But if group classes in my area from different studios tend to load up quantity/variety at the expense of technique then it's problematic to find one that does not. There are privates and video courses of course but each have its pluses and minuses.

 

[lucia_l]

And you also said beginners want a few patterns. How is that not contradicting yourself?

If you are going to defend against your accusation, and you know how to use quotes (which clearly you do), perhaps you should quote the precise statements with context surrounding those statements so I can have the slightest idea which statements you think contradict other statements.

But really, maybe you shouldn't do that because I don't think people want to read long arguments over arguments.

My main suggestion to you-- who claim to be a beginner-- is to try to find another class. Surely there are some near you that don't teach 50 or 70 patterns (or even elements) in one session. Both numbers you've thrown out there. Or, order some tapes from Dance Vision and go through at the pace you like.

Good luck with your dancing. (I will now stop engaging you on this thread. )

 

[snapdancer]

If you are going to defend against your accusation, ....

The OP's behavior here has me trying to decide whether he's just a troll. He comes to the forum asking for advice, and if he doesn't like it he picks it apart with disdain. I found the section in your comment that he's fixated on. Yes, you could have stated it a bit more clearly, but after you've reiterated what you meant, he insists on picking on it. Instead of appreciating the time you took to respond.

I recommend leaving the OP to figure it out on his own, since he's already so much smarter than we are.

 

[labachata]

perhaps you should quote the precise statements with context surrounding those statements so I can have the slightest idea which statements you think contradict other statements.

I've done exactly that just up the thread. But I will repost.

YOU: Anyway, the main goal of many beginning students is to get on the dance floor and survive with a few patterns that get them around.
Also YOU: Lots of students want to learn patterns much more than technique.

If that's not contradicting yourself then I'm not sure what is. I fully understand some people have trouble admitting they made a mistake or whatever but that's not my problem.

But really, maybe you shouldn't do that because I don't think people want to read long arguments over arguments.

No, I should and it's only fair to you for me to do so (I just don't particularly enjoy doing it twice) I don't throw stuff out there without backing it up. Whether people read or not it's up to them.

My main suggestion to you-- who claim to be a beginner

I am a beginner and I don't appreciate your completely unfounded insinuation that I'm not.

Thank you for your feedback. I, honestly, do appreciate it. Just because I've pointed out an inconsistency in it doesn't mean I don't appreciate it or that you need to take it personally.

 

[labachata]

The OP's behavior here has me trying to decide whether he's just a troll. He comes to the forum asking for advice, and if he doesn't like it he picks it apart with disdain. I found the section in your comment that he's fixated on. Yes, you could have stated it a bit more clearly, but after you've reiterated what you meant, he insists on picking on it. Instead of appreciating the time you took to respond.

I recommend leaving the OP to figure it out on his own, since he's already so much smarter than we are.

Well, I have a right to have my own thoughts on the matter and express them, don't I? Or by asking for feedback I automatically forfeit that? Do I have a right to have to express my thoughts on the feedback? Or I'm only allowed to agree with every word of it and gush with appreciation?

There is no disdain on my part. I am not the one who's taking the discussion personally. And I hope this is a discussion, not a lecture (and even most professors allow comments from students!)

 

[lucia_l]

I wasn't going to answer. But thanks, I can now see that I did not contradict myself.

I've done exactly that just up the thread. But I will repost.

YOU: Anyway, the main goal of many beginning students is to get on the dance floor and survive with a few patterns that get them around.
Also YOU: Lots of students want to learn patterns much more than technique.

Sentence 1: The main goal of many beginners is to learn a few patterns.
This implies many students want to focus patterns which is not technique,

Sentence 2: Also, lots of students want to learn patterns more than technique.
This reitterates: Lots of students want to learn patterns more than they want to learn technique

Perhaps as snapchat suggest I might have been clearer; but I don't think two sentences that substantially say the exact same thing are contradictions!

If that's not contradicting yourself then I'm not sure what is. I fully understand some people have trouble admitting they made a mistake or whatever but that's not my problem.

It is true that some people have trouble admitting they made a mistake.

I'm going to leave the rest of the accusations alone. I don't think I am guilty of them but I honestly doubt I will convince you of that. I am not going to apologize for things I did not do.

Good luck with your dancing.

 

[atk]

Alternately, @labachata ,

1. Let there be a set, A, where the set consistss of dancers who are interested in patterns more than technique
2. Let there ba a set, !A, of dancers who are interested in technique more than patterns
3. Let there be a set B that consiats of dancers who want a few patterns to get around the floor, where "a few" is colloquial and is unspecified as to whether it indicates a small or a large number. Note that this set overlaps both A (a few patterns being less important tgan technique) and set !A (a few patterns being more patterns being more important than technique).

As we can see, sets A (or !A) and B are orthogonal - one has no dependency upon the other. Any attempt to indicate that the sets are dependant, including contradictory, is without merit.

Furthermore, let us note that this is a forum where people share ideas, not a college or high school debate class where individuals are encouraged to point out in inconsistencies in order to "win points". As such, it is likely to be counter productive and fruitless to treat interactions on this forum as logical arguments or interact as though it is a debate. It is much more likely to be constructive to communicate with each other with respect, and by asking questions aimed to understand, rather than challenge (and rather than statements designed to challenge).

Genetalizingg, it is often worthwhile to observe the behavior of a group and attempt to mimic the predominant style of interaction, if one is interested in engaging in mutually satisfying conversation.

Unless, of course, one desires to "be a troll,". In which xase, one should engage in debare where there is none, challenge rather than ask questions to understand, and generally, "be a jerk". Alternately, one might now engage in ad homenim attacks, create and knock down straw men, or implement any other fallacy, or even just act defensive rather than contrite, thereby demonstrating oneself to be confirmed a "a troll", abd therefore deserving if nothing beyond being ignored.

Please note that any offence based upon this comment is unintended. Tone and style are based upon experience with a multitude if communication styles, and the chosen style fir this post reflects only uoon tge poster, not upon the reader, and was selected witb the hope if maximizing communication.

 

[atk]

(Wow. Some of the swypos and typos i missed are.. a little embarassing. Sorry.)

 

[labachata]

Alternately, @labachata ,

1. Let there be a set, A, where the set consistss of dancers who are interested in patterns more than technique
2. Let there ba a set, !A, of dancers who are interested in technique more than patterns
3. Let there be a set B that consiats of dancers who want a few patterns to get around the floor, where "a few" is colloquial and is unspecified as to whether it indicates a small or a large number. Note that this set overlaps both A (a few patterns being less important tgan technique) and set !A (a few patterns being more patterns being more important than technique).

As we can see, sets A (or !A) and B are orthogonal - one has no dependency upon the other. Any attempt to indicate that the sets are dependant, including contradictory, is without merit.

Furthermore, let us note that this is a forum where people share ideas, not a college or high school debate class where individuals are encouraged to point out in inconsistencies in order to "win points". As such, it is likely to be counter productive and fruitless to treat interactions on this forum as logical arguments or interact as though it is a debate. It is much more likely to be constructive to communicate with each other with respect, and by asking questions aimed to understand, rather than challenge (and rather than statements designed to challenge).

Genetalizingg, it is often worthwhile to observe the behavior of a group and attempt to mimic the predominant style of interaction, if one is interested in engaging in mutually satisfying conversation.

Unless, of course, one desires to "be a troll,". In which xase, one should engage in debare where there is none, challenge rather than ask questions to understand, and generally, "be a jerk". Alternately, one might now engage in ad homenim attacks, create and knock down straw men, or implement any other fallacy, or even just act defensive rather than contrite, thereby demonstrating oneself to be confirmed a "a troll", abd therefore deserving if nothing beyond being ignored.

Please note that any offence based upon this comment is unintended. Tone and style are based upon experience with a multitude if communication styles, and the chosen style fir this post reflects only uoon tge poster, not upon the reader, and was selected witb the hope if maximizing communication.

Listen, I think there was an inconsistency in what she's posted. If you don't think so, that's fine but don't tell me how to be, how to act, etc.

 

[labachata]

(Wow. Some of the swypos and typos i missed are.. a little embarassing. Sorry.)

you had me at Genetalizingg

 

[atk]

Listen, I think there was an inconsistency in what she's posted. If you don't think so, that's fine but don't tell me how to be, how to act, etc.

Straw man. Demonstration of continued desire to debate, not talk. Action as postulated in later paragraph of my post.

Troll. Ignoring. Good luck to you in your endeavors.

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS.