Proficiency Point Rules: The Mystery!

Well because it's not actually a global NDCA rule but rather a recommendation that an orginzer make a rule for their comp, it's entirely possible that a given organizer could enact a version without the semifinal requirement.
 
Huh? How did they dance a senior 1 novice when the already had 4 points in it????

Or was this a "they said, you said" problem that's not actually about the rules, but about the evidence upon which to enforce them?


Remember, the comp officials, USABDA or anyone else is not responsible to track your points. The competitors must keep track of their own points. This Honor system works until it doesn't, just like the rythm method for birth control.

We (other couples in the heat) proved it afterward. We checked the rules and checked past results and provided the documentation to the USABDA eligibility chairman, (along with protests from the other couples). If you look at the results for Nationals last year you will see how the results were edited. We had no way to prove it at Nationals and when I tried to bring it to the officials attention, all he did was ask the couple if they were sure of the proficiency points they had. They said something like they didn't have 3 points yet.

Now the complete story started before Nationals where my wife asked them if they knew how many proficiency points they had at the previos comp. The lady of the couple said that "he" watches those things. My wife and I knew that they had at least 3, but didn't want to come out and tell them. From now on I won't be so bashful.

What is sort of funny is we had someone come to us asking about how many points we had, I could honestly say how many I had and I know where they are when I got them and what I am still eligible for.
 
Okay, so it was an issue of lack of available documentation in the timeframe in which the organizer had to make a decision. They aren't allowed to deny an elgible couple, and you can always DQ someone after the fact, but you can't retroactively put them back into an event.

The answer seems not to be to change the rules, but rather to do something like requiring all sanctioned competitions to submit an official list of placings back to USABDA, which could be collected and put on line, sent on CD to organizers of sanctioned comps, whatever.

Also, as competitor lists are starting to show up online ahead of time, it really does make sense for each of us to scan our events for people who jump out as not belonging there, and collect documentation if need be. Obviously this doesn't work so well with people you have never heard of before.
 
DanceAm said:
With the overwhelming amount of points, this couple had a total of 7 points. (Remember that Nationals technically counts as 3 points.)
I am not sure about this. I know if you win Nationals in a given level, you are not allowed to dance that level again - at USABDA events.

However, that is not the same as getting 3 points.

Let's take an example where a couple enters Novice at Nationals and goes in with zero points, gets lucky and wins it. Indeed, they cannot dance Novice at any USABDA events any more. However, from the point of view of NDCA, all the couple has is one win, so one point.
They are free to carry on in Novice til they pick up the next 2 points.

Doesn't this seem plausible?
 
Mary,

I understand exactly what you are saying. However, doesn't the NDCA rule book say something about winning a National Championship precludes you from dancing at that level again? (except for championship level of course.)
 
I looked thru the NDCA book today and can find no restrictions arising from winning a national championship. So, I guess the NDCA doesn't change things if a person wins their level in USABDA Nationals. This does make sense really, considering the NDCA now have their own Nationals from which they announce their version of 'elite' dancers, i.e. the ones who are allowed to teach. They do not go by USABDA's list anymore.

All of this particularly confused the "who can teach?" discussion which is too much to take on anyway. The answer is that many, many in Champ teach, from the Quarterfinal onwards.

I just got, and assume most of you all got, a email from NDCA again remarking that only their 6 couples from Latin and Standard finals in Utah are allowed to teach. Of course, I see all kinds of people out there teaching. It doesn't bother me too much, as long as they are competing at Champion level. The top of Champ is really a bunch of pre-pros anyway, so I don't see much difference...
 
I don't think the whole teaching dispute has much to do with proficiency points at all.

It is funny though how both NDCA and USABDA like to pretend they are the only game in town. People permitted to teach by USABDA and not by NDCA can simply not go to NDCA comps... (dancing at USABDA, overseas, and at least until amateur is defined in that context collegiate events)

Expect USABDA to counter the NDCA reminder shortly by reminding everyone that theirs are the only "Nationals"
 
Chris Stratton said:
Expect USABDA to counter the NDCA reminder shortly by reminding everyone that theirs are the only "Nationals"

Really, you think they could at least re-word it.

I dance both NDCA and USABDA in American Rhythm. I will be lucky to get a semi-final in Championship USABDA. But at NDCA comps, I look forward to having at least one other couple on the floor. The NDCA usually gives out much nicer trophies and they are a lot easier to get. It seems to me that we are the only couple in American Rhythm currently dancing both sides.
 
Proficiency points and eligibility to teach do not go together. However, the differences between NDCA and USABDA in how both these attributes are awarded is illustrative of the confusion caused by having 2 organizations with markedly different rules.

Small wonder people have trouble figuring out how many points they have. Make the finals with a semi (above your level), you have a point in NDCA. But if you got 4th in that same final, you don't have a point from USABDA. Got that? Who can teach? - depends who you ask. Win Nationals - yeah, you can still dance your level - at NDCA. Win NDCA Nationals at your level, you can do whatever you want.

I have a spreadsheet with all the results from every comp we have done, along with accumulated proficiency points. I did this for my own records, but it is handy to have if anyone ever challenged us (never has happened). Thinking about it, I could see where one could need 2 spreadsheets, one for USABDA, one for NDCA. It is quite possible to be eligible for different levels simultaneously between the 2 organizations.
 
So it looks like there are two differences:

USABDA - winning our nationals places you out of the level

NDCA - making the final of the next level up earns you a point with just a semi; under usabda you have to get 2nd or 3rd with a semi, or final with a quarter

I actually could see this as being important - under NDCA rules, if 8 couples show up for a championship event, it must be run as a semi. A marginal pre-champ couple could conceivable pick up a pre-champ point just by beating two couples who had no business being there for the 6th spot in the champ final. Wheras under the USABDA (and also collegiate) system, you have to place at least in the top half of the field, and usually the top 3rd before there is any chance of getting points.
 
Exactly so.

If you dance a group of ill attended NDCA comps, you can get booted out of your level even though you are really not at all ready for the next level.

I find it interesting that NDCA makes it much easier to get "kicked up" than USABDA does.

The remedy for the problem is only to dance the big comps when you are dancing "up" from your level. That way if you get a point, you know you deserve it.
 
Wow... just realized if there'd been one more couple at the USISTD comp this past spring I'd have a pre-champ point! (Or maybe not, strictly speaking it's unclear if we should actually have been allowed to dance silver, gold, and then skip up a level to the open scholarship event)
 
marykomatsu said:
I find it interesting that NDCA makes it much easier to get "kicked up" than USABDA does.
The "point making a final (even from just 8)" rule is probably just copied from USABDA rules a few years back. You could probably suggest that it be changed....

Just to make things more complicated, those old points were grandfathered by USABDA when USABDA changed to the 'top three or quarterfinal' rule.
 

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