Question about beats

[salilsurendran]

Hello Friends,
One of my beginner friends asked me a question that I had no answer to and I was dumb struck as to why i hadn't had the same question all this time. Salsa is said to be a quick-quick-slow dance. But how is it quick-quick-slow when we step or change weight on every beat. For eg. we step(beat 1)-change weight(beat 2)-replace step(beat 3)-hold(beat 4). so where does the quick-quick-slow come in. it should be quick-quick-quick-hold. I practise to some pure clave tunes in which the only instrument playing is the clave. on the 2 side the clave strikes on the 2nd and 3rd beats. I find it very difficult to complete the 3rd step on the 2nd slap of the clave even if I am on time for the 1st slap of the clave. Because the 3rd step is supposed to be slow and the 2nd slap of the clave happens very fast after the 1st. Is my dancing fundamentals or knowledge of clave wrong in some way?

 

[Dancelf]

Hello Friends,
One of my beginner friends asked me a question that I had no answer to and I was dumb struck as to why i hadn't had the same question all this time. Salsa is said to be a quick-quick-slow dance. But how is it quick-quick-slow when we step or change weight on every beat. For eg. we step(beat 1)-change weight(beat 2)-replace step(beat 3)-hold(beat 4). so where does the quick-quick-slow come in. it should be quick-quick-quick-hold.

Standard westie disclaimer applies...

Skippy's Dance Terminology Notebook. This is mostly focused on swing, and she comes from a ballroom background, she thinks the entire idea of quicks and slows should be deprecated, and maybe these rules aren't good for salsa anyway...

That said: salsa isn't quick-quick-slow, but instead quick-quick slow. There are two calls: "quick-quick" to tell you that you are executing a double rhythm (two weight changes) in two beats, and "slow" to tell you that you are executing a single rhythm (one weight change) in two beats.

"quick" in isolation doesn't work - there ain't no such thing as half-of-a-double-rhythm.

If you are holding count 4, quick-quick slow will get you by. If you are holding on count 2, you are ok - the single and double rhythm are reversed, so slow quick-quick has you covered.

If you are holding count 1, you've got a real problem here. You need something to represent the delayed single rhythm. I wrote to Skippy two years ago to ask what they used to do in that case, before they deprecated this counting style. The very polite reply boils down to "we abandoned that terminology so that we don't have to think about that anymore - good luck."

In summary: why? Historical accident.

 

[waltzgirl]

Traditionally, a quick is one beat and a slow is two beats. So, as you counted in in the op, 1 is quick, 2 is quick, 3-4 is slow. You aren't changing weight on every beat, just on 1, 2, and 3, if 4 is a hold. Basically, you are using the two beats of the slow for one step, whether you step on 3 and hold 4, or as in some dances like foxtrot (sqq), take the slow step over the full two beats.

That said, I too find counting the beats, rather than q's and s's, works better for latin dancing.

 

[tangotime]

Standard westie disclaimer applies...


"quick" in isolation doesn't work - there ain't no such thing as half-of-a-double-rhythm.


.

yes there is... music is written in full, half , quarter and eighth notes. And the term " rhythm " as generally applied to dance, is an indication of how much TIME we are giving to a specific movement .

One can apply a " double " time action, by tapping and using a whole beat without a weight change as in.. Tap on 1, change weight on 2 ,using the same foot ( typical in PR style salsa for e.g. ). Double time, does NOT mean moving twice the allotted time.

Also, timing and rhythm, are 2 different entities .

Syncopations in dance, may be fractions of half and quarter notes, and are frequently used in advanced work .

 

[salilsurendran]

so i guess what you guys are saying is that you have to do the first two steps i.e., step forward with left, rock back on right in the first 2 beats. so on the first slap of the 2 side clave i should have rocked back. then i don't need to hurry up and replace left foot to hit the 2nd slap of the clave(3rd beat). I can do that over the 3rd and part of the 4th beat?

 

[Dancelf]

so i guess what you guys are saying is that you have to do the first two steps i.e., step forward with left, rock back on right in the first 2 beats. so on the first slap of the 2 side clave i should have rocked back. then i don't need to hurry up and replace left foot to hit the 2nd slap of the clave(3rd beat). I can do that over the 3rd and part of the 4th beat?

That might be true, but I don't think anybody said that - it looks to me as though the discussion so far has been about the vocabulary alone.

But at the risk of exposing further the ignorance of salsa I've admitted many times, I'll report the results of an experiment I tried last night.

First, I fired up the Salsamerlizer, and turned off everything but the clave. Then I argued with my ears for five minutes or so, because without any other cues to work from, I kept mapping the sounds to a 3:2, instead of the 2:3.

Once I got that taken care of, I started a salsa basic (breaking forward with my left on count 1), and observed the results.

The first thing I observed is that my center was directly over my left foot on the strike of count three. I then noticed that my center was not directly over my right foot on count 7. In other words, on the two side my basic was being compressed a little bit (in time) with a staccato feel, and stretched out on the three side more languorously.

This morning, paying more attention to actually bringing out the clave, I found that my basic turns into a four-two instead of a three-three. In other words, what I'm hearing in my hears is

(bip bip bip and ) bah bah bip bip bip bip and bah bah bip bip bip bip and bah bah bip bip bip bip and ...

To help clarify, the "bah bah" is coincides with the beginning of the :3, so on five and "late six". Each of the b words shows where I step, with the "and" as the spacer on count 4 that sharpens the previous step.

For advanced musicality students: if you squint, you'll observe why my brain wants to turn this into a 3:2. Hint - where does the agogic accent fall in the scat I've been using to represent this clave rhythm?

It may be lack of practice, but when I try to soften the three ("bip and" becomes booo ) ...

(bip bip booo ) bah bah bip bip bip booo bah bah bip bip bip booo bah bah bip bip bip booo ...

I end up being late, in a way that feels like it matches what you describe. I can, with concentration, do it with my finger, so I'm sure that it can be learned. It's "just" a third speed to be added to the mix.

I'm not very happy with it, because the agogic accent I mentioned earlier now falls into the middle of a measure, instead of at the beginning.

So now you know what happens when one westie tries to actually think about salsa. I wish you the best of luck in trying to apply this. Please keep in mind that the value in this may be that it serves well as a "bad example". I repeat that disclaimer for a reason.

 

[PsychoSalsaGuy]

I replied to your question already on SF but I'll repeat it here. After all, I did link to this forum...

I actually asked this very question...
Is the timing for on1 style REALLY Quick Quick Slow?
http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=27222

I like what Angel HI said:

Absolutely detest teaching in rhythms...slows and quicks. Never do it...never will.

...teach them that slows and quicks refer to body action and not foot speed.

then...

quicks and slows have nothing to do with the feet. They refer to impulse or body action. I have noticed over the decades that once persons learn this, their dancing always becomes instantly better.

 

[tangotime]

I replied to your question already on SF but I'll repeat it here. After all, I did link to this forum...

I actually asked this very question...
Is the timing for on1 style REALLY Quick Quick Slow?
http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=27222

I like what Angel HI said:

..

And the point is, that the SPEED of the body ( which always moves first ) is related to " time " elements ...the numerical count , is the # representing the actual changes of weight , that is fractionally behind the " motion "of the body .

The combination of both terms should be applicable .The counting of # only, always produces a very mechanical reaction with beginning students . The allocation of " speed " invariably resolves that problem .