Question about leader's handhold

[jennyisdancing]

I'm a follower and I've noticed that a few of the leaders use a different style of handhold which I find odd. The normal hold that I've been taught is for the leader to hold out his arm with the palm facing up; both partners cup their hands and connect with four fingers into the palms.

But a few leaders instead connect with only two fingertips, and they rotate their arm inwards. Sometimes they rotate the arm/hand inward and outward as they lead me forward. I don't like it at all. It's uncomfortable for me since it twists my arm and hand around, and it's harder to follow. I also think it looks uncool. Is this some kind of styling on their part? Is it an outdated method? Or were they just taught badly? I've taken classes and workshops with almost every top teacher, and not one of them teaches a two-fingertip, rotated handhold.

Speaking of which, I was at workshops with Jennifer Lyons this weekend, and she is amazing, I highly recommend her.

 

[Dancelf]

Taking the second point first - zig zagging the connection when intending to lead the follower straight is not a good idea. I don't believe that anybody really teaches that way, but it is easy to learn that way, because making the connection discrete from the rest of your movement is hard, and there are more important things to worry about first.

If it induces discomfort, that's a problem that should be addressed. This is, I think, the first time I've heard of that (compared with it inducing confusion, or looking silly, which are the more common complaints).

I'm a follower and I've noticed that a few of the leaders use a different style of handhold which I find odd. The normal hold that I've been taught is for the leader to hold out his arm with the palm facing up; both partners cup their hands and connect with four fingers into the palms.

OK, that description doesn't match with any description of the basic westie hold that I have been taught.

When Mario teaches westie 101, the description is something like this: have their elbows at their sides, the hands forward (so the elbow is at a 90 degree angle) with the palms facing in (thumbs point to the ceiling) and another 90 degree angle at the first knuckle so that the finger tips point in. For the followers, the elbows are at their sides, hands in front (same angle in the elbow), palms facing down, and finger tips point toward the floor ("show off the rings!"). Now "Hook up". Followers fingers cross the leaders fingers, rather than lying parallel on them.

Now , without changing that basic orientation to change, allow the hands to soften; you get angles that aren't quite square any more, but still maintain a lot of surface contact and feels a lot more "natural". The softness is very important, as that allows a countless number of micro adjustments to be made on the fly.

In addition to that, a good leader will make adjustments to the shape of the connection to communicate to the follower the amount of interpretation he is expecting. The analogy here is the comparison of the steering of a Cadillac versus a Ferrari - tightening into the connection is a way of indicating to the follower that the next bit needs a very precise follow.

You will also find some leaders who use a pistol grip - the basic idea is the same, except that the index finger is straightened, and rests gently along the side of the follower's hand. There are some advantages here for leaders who can take advantage of extra control.

Edit: fixed a silly mistake.

 

[jennyisdancing]

Taking the second point first - zig zagging the connection when intending to lead the follower straight is not a good idea. I don't believe that anybody really teaches that way, but it is easy to learn that way, because making the connection discrete from the rest of your movement is hard, and there are more important things to worry about first.

If it induces discomfort, that's a problem that should be addressed. This is, I think, the first time I've heard of that (compared with it inducing confusion, or looking silly, which are the more common complaints).



OK, that description doesn't match with any description of the basic westie hold that I have been taught.

When Mario teaches westie 101, the description is something like this: have their elbows at their sides, the hands forward (so the elbow is at a 90 degree angle) with the palms facing in (thumbs point to the ceiling) and another 90 degree angle at the first knuckle so that the finger tips point in. For the followers, the elbows are at their sides, hands in front (same angle in the elbow), palms facing in, and finger tips point toward the floor ("show off the rings!"). Now "Hook up". Followers fingers cross the leaders fingers, rather than lying parallel on them.

Now , without changing that basic orientation to change, allow the hands to soften; you get angles that aren't quite square any more, but still maintain a lot of surface contact and feels a lot more "natural". The softness is very important, as that allows a countless number of micro adjustments to be made on the fly.

In addition to that, a good leader will make adjustments to the shape of the connection to communicate to the follower the amount of interpretation he is expecting. The analogy here is the comparison of the steering of a Cadillac versus a Ferrari - tightening into the connection is a way of indicating to the follower that the next bit needs a very precise follow.

You will also find some leaders who use a pistol grip - the basic idea is the same, except that the index finger is straightened, and rests gently along the side of the follower's hand. There are some advantages here for leaders who can take advantage of extra control.

I've never seen the pistol grip. You may be right about the leader's part of the hand hold. As a follower, I mainly remember my own part. I don't see how my palm can face in, while my fingers point downward. I tried that; it's not physically possible. Not a criticism of what you're saying. I think both our descriptions are probably the same thing, just different ways of trying to approximately describe something that is a lot easier to do in the flesh. Of course you can adjust the connection in various ways.

Back to my original question, it sounds like the leaders who use the odd/twisty/fingertip thing are just plain doing it wrong? I do notice that when they start turning their arm back and forth, it of course leads me to swivel a bit on the forward step. I don't know if these leaders intend that result or not. I do notice that some ladies swivel just about every time they walk forward on 1, 2. Again, I was not taught to do that unless a swivel is specifically led.

 

[Dancelf]

I don't see how my palm can face in, while my fingers point downward. I tried that; it's not physically possible.

Um, yeah (whistle...). I meant palm down for the followers; never was very good at proof reading....

Back to my original question, it sounds like the leaders who use the odd/twisty/fingertip thing are just plain doing it wrong?

That would be my guess - I can't come up with anything right that I would describe as two fingertips with the arm turned in.

For twisty, it sounds like you mean inducing a lateral roll (pronation/supination) in the follower's forearm? That's not something you should see regularly either. There are a few leads that call for that adjustment, and subtle styling indication that you may occasionally get from an advanced leader at the end of a pattern (by subtle, I mean that if you actually catch him at it, he's doing it wrong).

 

[jennyisdancing]

Um, yeah (whistle...). I meant palm down for the followers; never was very good at proof reading....



That would be my guess - I can't come up with anything right that I would describe as two fingertips with the arm turned in.

For twisty, it sounds like you mean inducing a lateral roll (pronation/supination) in the follower's forearm? That's not something you should see regularly either. There are a few leads that call for that adjustment, and subtle styling indication that you may occasionally get from an advanced leader at the end of a pattern (by subtle, I mean that if you actually catch him at it, he's doing it wrong).

Inducing a lateral roll, yes, that is what those leaders are doing. Their odd movement is causing my forearm or wrist to rotate inwards, and it's either uncomfortable, hard to follow, or both. And if they rotate back and forth, I'll end up doing swivels during what should be a forward walk. These leaders are doing this motion at the beginning of the pattern, not the end of it.

What I was wondering about is, these leaders must have been taught to lead this way, or someone showed them to do it. Such an affected, odd handhold wouldn't happen by accident. These guys are not newbies, they are leaders who have been dancing for many years. They are older guys also, that's why I thought maybe this leading style was some sort of old-school thing.

 

[Dancelf]

Decided to add one further point - a correct lead can be produced using a single finger, provided it is in the correct place. I wouldn't describe this as a finger tip lead, because the entire length of the finger is used.

 

[Steve Pastor]

This url will take you to an "Instructor's Manual" for West Coast Swing placed on line by
The Atlanta Swing Dancers Club.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:rCiiNwAy5_4J:www.atlantaswingdancers.com/ASDC%2520Instructor%2520Manual.pdf+west+coast+swing+hand+hold&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us
Note the following

Copyright September, 2004​

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike License.

"Man’s left hand is holding the lady’s right by cupping his hand slightly and allowing the lady’s hand to hook over top. Man’s left palm faces to the right (rather than up or down), and the lady’s palm should face the floor."

"The hand connection is essentially the middle and ring finger of the lady’s right hand hooked around the middle and ring finger of the man’s left hand."

So, there are people curently teaching a "two finger" hand hold, if you want to call it that, but not "side ways".

The swivel thing, yeah, if you have a good connection, and the woman is taking nice clean, distinctive steps, the swivel thing is real doable on the walk steps (it actually feels a lot like forward "ochos" in Argentine Tango). I was never taught, though, to rotate my hand and arm and it sounds like a bad idea. The motion should be more back and forth parallel to the floor.

 

[jennyisdancing]

This url will take you to an "Instructor's Manual" for West Coast Swing placed on line by
The Atlanta Swing Dancers Club.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:rCiiNwAy5_4J:www.atlantaswingdancers.com/ASDC%2520Instructor%2520Manual.pdf+west+coast+swing+hand+hold&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us
Note the following

Copyright September, 2004​

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike License.

"Man’s left hand is holding the lady’s right by cupping his hand slightly and allowing the lady’s hand to hook over top. Man’s left palm faces to the right (rather than up or down), and the lady’s palm should face the floor."

"The hand connection is essentially the middle and ring finger of the lady’s right hand hooked around the middle and ring finger of the man’s left hand."

So, there are people curently teaching a "two finger" hand hold, if you want to call it that, but not "side ways".

The swivel thing, yeah, if you have a good connection, and the woman is taking nice clean, distinctive steps, the swivel thing is real doable on the walk steps (it actually feels a lot like forward "ochos" in Argentine Tango). I was never taught, though, to rotate my hand and arm and it sounds like a bad idea. The motion should be more back and forth parallel to the floor.

Thanks - that handhold, although focusing on the two fingers, is still what I would call a normal style handhold because the partners are still cupping/hooking their hands, which is what I was taught. And that description says the leader's palm should face inward. So he's creating a comfortable hook for his follower to connect to, not rotating his forearm/hand inwards. Yes, I agree the forward swivels are easily 'doable", but I guess I'm seeing them way overdone by some folks. I see some ladies pretty much always swiveling when they walk forward; I don't know if they were taught this, or if they dance with certain leaders who always lead it, or what. Constant swiveling detracts from the characteristic smooth, elastic look of WCS, to me.

 

[Steve Pastor]

When I hold my hand out, the most natural position seems to be with my palm at about a 30 degree angle to the floor. Holding it either parallel or perpendicular seems to require more effort.
People teach what they teach.

Reagarding the rest... I can only say that I agree with you.

Hopefully you will let guys who are making you uncomfortable know about it. Tactfully of course.
One of my friends had a bad shoulder for several months now, and we hadn't danced together because of it. She talked to me this weekend and let me know, with a big smile on her face, that she had finished physical therapy and was ready to start dancing with me again. When I said something to her about letting the guys know if they are hurting her, she said, "Oh, it's not going to happen again!"
(One of the other guys had just told me, "You know who really likes dancing with you?" Yup, it was her. I got to tell him the whole story, too.)

I often ask my partners to turn in directions that are completely doable, but which they just aren't led to do by other guys. I'll usually suggest gently once, then, maybe again, a little more clearly. I don't Think I'm forcing anything, but Iwould sure want someone to let me know if it feels that way to them.
One of our instructors here woke up one morning with her entire shoulder black and blue. Her rotator cuff have finally torn and she had to have surgery. She was sure it was because of how guys lead turns.
Not the same problem, exactly, but if only she had said something to all those guys...

 

[Vince A]

For you as a follower . . . there are probably as many hand-hold connections out there as there are dancers. Personally, I would make adjustments to make your end-connection better. If someone is causing you pain . . . let go and let them know it. Walk away. Be an @ss. Walk off the floor! I remember seeing a woman forced/pushed into doing a split in a WCS Jack and Jill. Poor thing hurt for months!

I make adjustments all the time . . . for the followers that are stiff or heavy, to those that give no compression, nor have a frame.

I have an extremely light connection . . . used to practice with a nickle between our fingertips to get it, but I also can get you to go where I led you . . . that is, of course, you do not hijack the lead, which I like following too!

BTW, I'm guilty of being one of those leaders that rotate your arm . . . albeit, that movement is very, very slight . . . you feel it more than you can see it!

 

[jennyisdancing]

For you as a follower . . . there are probably as many hand-hold connections out there as there are dancers. Personally, I would make adjustments to make your end-connection better. If someone is causing you pain . . . let go and let them know it. Walk away. Be an @ss. Walk off the floor! I remember seeing a woman forced/pushed into doing a split in a WCS Jack and Jill. Poor thing hurt for months!

I make adjustments all the time . . . for the followers that are stiff or heavy, to those that give no compression, nor have a frame.

I have an extremely light connection . . . used to practice with a nickle between our fingertips to get it, but I also can get you to go where I led you . . . that is, of course, you do not hijack the lead, which I like following too!

BTW, I'm guilty of being one of those leaders that rotate your arm . . . albeit, that movement is very, very slight . . . you feel it more than you can see it!

my recent experience with the uncomfortable handhold happened in a workshop - we were frequently rotating partners anyway, so it wasn't too bad. In a social dance, I just try to avoid the bad leaders altogether. Extremely light connection is perfectly fine, as is a very slight rotation for styling - if done by a skilled leader. The good leaders are leading with their bodies, not their arms, anyway. My teacher sometimes rotates his arm just a little for looks, but he's still leading me to walk straight. Maybe what is happening is that some unskilled leaders are trying to imitate the appearance of what the advanced guys are doing, but are not using the correct technique.

 

[Vince A]

Maybe what is happening is that some unskilled leaders are trying to imitate the appearance of what the advanced guys are doing, but are not using the correct technique.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I agree . . .

 

[JustAnotherDancer]

For you as a follower . . . If someone is causing you pain . . . let go and let them know it. Walk away. Be an @ss. Walk off the floor!

Vince,

I read your post days ago, and have been thinking about it since.

There are very few people with whom I won't dance- that list is really short. The people who are on "the list" are the ones who cause pain and/or give instruction during a 3-minute social dance. Neither is enjoyable.

A few weeks ago, I was really disappointed to find another of those rare leaders that hurt me and threw me around. I'm a short lightweight- the leader was big and tall. One dance, and the next morning, I headed straight for the ibuprofen! and back to physical therapy.

I should have stopped dancing in the first 10 seconds and given a polite explanation. Foolish me- I kept dancing, trying to be polite, smiling politely at the instruction and repetition of patterns until I "got it", wondering what was wrong with my usually decent follow, and... thinking that this leader is "supposed to be good" as he competes and takes private lessons. Right??? (I know the answer to that).

A torn rotator cuff, back injury, cruciate ligament tear... I don't need it.

Thanks for your blunt, leader perspective!

JustAnotherDancer

 

[Vince A]

You're welcome . . . glad I could help!