Quickstep - Outside Run
- Thread starter gclarke
- Start date
Chris Stratton
New Member
It's a subliminal suggestion.
run.
outside.
or anywhere but that class
run.
outside.
or anywhere but that class
gclarke
New Member
mmmm Why am I getting the feeling that there is no such thing as an 'outside run'.
Looks like that's his own name for it because we step 'outside' our partners, and although we have slow steps, he says later we will speed them up. (and of course I came straight home and wanted to look it). I guess that means SS will become QQ etc.
I recall asking earlier on this forum why a run was slow steps - now the light is beginning to dawn - I think we must be doing 'Idiots guide to the Quickstep'. Clearly we can't be trusted to master new steps AND do them at the right speed. Grrrrrr - 'nuf said!
Let me ask you Guys a question.
As a dance instructor, would you be offended if your student asked why something they'd been taught 'wasn't in the book' or 'where would I find that in my book?
I'm going for my first private lesson on Saturday (elsewhere) and I really really really want to state up front that I consider it one of my prerequisites that I can name my steps and if I feel the need to, check them in my book. I don't mean that I want to check on the instructor, just that my memory is poor and if I feel I have something wrong I want to be able to swot up on it before my next lesson.
Does that seem OTT?
and123
Well-Known Member
Running finish, maybe?
I would think that any good Pro would want to know what their students want and need so that both sides understand what can reasonably be expected. No, a student should not dictate what a teacher does, but the teacher should try to accommodate the learning style of the student. If you need to see it in black and white on a piece of paper, IMO that isn't too much to ask.
I would think that any good Pro would want to know what their students want and need so that both sides understand what can reasonably be expected. No, a student should not dictate what a teacher does, but the teacher should try to accommodate the learning style of the student. If you need to see it in black and white on a piece of paper, IMO that isn't too much to ask.
Chris Stratton
New Member
Actually there are at least two legitimate candidates for an "outside run".
The first one, the one I was interpreting as a suggestion to run away from the class, would be a series of steps on quicks taken outside partner.
The second case, which is in fact consistent with elementary syllabus would be a single step outside partner taken as a slow. This doesn't occur as it's own element in the syllabus, but instead as a sort of "in between" thing usually documented as part of the preceding figure.
For an example of this syllabus outside run on a slow, if you did a progressive chasse moving more into the room, the real progressive chasse action itself ends with the lowering step on the man's left/lady's right. But if you look in the book, one more step is given, outside partner on the man's right/lady's left. In the quarter turns, this would become the first step of the next quarter turn, and would be a rising slow. But if instead, we were dancing the progressive chasse into the center and wanted to follow it with a reverse figure such as a chasse reverse (or later on, a quick open reverse), then we'd need to take this slow step as a flat interlude to get on the appropriate foot to begin a reverse figure. The rise would then begin in the first step of the reverse figure.
BTW, on the private lesson. Unless it's with the group class instructor, I'd recommend not bringing the group class material into it right away. Instead, let the teacher teach you something fundamental about some of the dances, choosing simple material that they think will illustrate this. You can spend a lot of lesson time patching up complex routines until you can sort of get through them, but to really learn it's best to let the teacher make their own presentation and not saddle them with someone else's choreography decisions - which historically speaking, haven't always seemed very well chosen. Another thing that will commonly happen is they'll ask to see what you have, and you dance a little bit of it, and then the lesson basically uses just the first 2-3 measures as the basis material with which to talk about dancing - this works fairly well.
The first one, the one I was interpreting as a suggestion to run away from the class, would be a series of steps on quicks taken outside partner.
The second case, which is in fact consistent with elementary syllabus would be a single step outside partner taken as a slow. This doesn't occur as it's own element in the syllabus, but instead as a sort of "in between" thing usually documented as part of the preceding figure.
For an example of this syllabus outside run on a slow, if you did a progressive chasse moving more into the room, the real progressive chasse action itself ends with the lowering step on the man's left/lady's right. But if you look in the book, one more step is given, outside partner on the man's right/lady's left. In the quarter turns, this would become the first step of the next quarter turn, and would be a rising slow. But if instead, we were dancing the progressive chasse into the center and wanted to follow it with a reverse figure such as a chasse reverse (or later on, a quick open reverse), then we'd need to take this slow step as a flat interlude to get on the appropriate foot to begin a reverse figure. The rise would then begin in the first step of the reverse figure.
BTW, on the private lesson. Unless it's with the group class instructor, I'd recommend not bringing the group class material into it right away. Instead, let the teacher teach you something fundamental about some of the dances, choosing simple material that they think will illustrate this. You can spend a lot of lesson time patching up complex routines until you can sort of get through them, but to really learn it's best to let the teacher make their own presentation and not saddle them with someone else's choreography decisions - which historically speaking, haven't always seemed very well chosen. Another thing that will commonly happen is they'll ask to see what you have, and you dance a little bit of it, and then the lesson basically uses just the first 2-3 measures as the basis material with which to talk about dancing - this works fairly well.
gclarke
New Member
Thanks And123 and Chris.
I think I'm experiencing a sort of 'dumbing-down' of the syllabus. I assume our instructor feels the need to teach it as an 'Idiots Guide to Ballroom'.
That's not to say I'm not an 'idiot' in the beginners sense but ... well it's all been said already.
I think Chris's comment about the transition steps could be a good point. I'm not going to waste any time trying to fathom it out though.
Last night we had new Tango steps with a flick. I asked what's this bit called and the answer was a 'flick'. I was dying to ask for S's and Q's but I just thought 'no - just don't go there'.
I just want to be able to dance through what we have at present so we can start from there with the new instructor. I can ask 'what's this bit'? and hopefully get an answer to the Outside Run and suchlike. I have no idea how much we may have to relearn. I know our position will most certainly be wrong in many cases.
I thought we might do Waltz and Quickstep to start. Or should we let the instructor decide? Perhaps if we go through all 8 dances as we know them now, 2 a week until we get everything looking right, then look at the Bronze Syllabus? What do you think?
We have Rumba, Cha Cha, Tango, Samba, all of which I love, and Rock and Roll which I'm not that keen on. Foxtrot we've just started so I think that can wait a while.
I am so excited about it. We have an hour but it seems simple to book more if we want.
I think I'm experiencing a sort of 'dumbing-down' of the syllabus. I assume our instructor feels the need to teach it as an 'Idiots Guide to Ballroom'.
That's not to say I'm not an 'idiot' in the beginners sense but ... well it's all been said already.I think Chris's comment about the transition steps could be a good point. I'm not going to waste any time trying to fathom it out though.
Last night we had new Tango steps with a flick. I asked what's this bit called and the answer was a 'flick'. I was dying to ask for S's and Q's but I just thought 'no - just don't go there'.
I just want to be able to dance through what we have at present so we can start from there with the new instructor. I can ask 'what's this bit'? and hopefully get an answer to the Outside Run and suchlike. I have no idea how much we may have to relearn. I know our position will most certainly be wrong in many cases.
I thought we might do Waltz and Quickstep to start. Or should we let the instructor decide? Perhaps if we go through all 8 dances as we know them now, 2 a week until we get everything looking right, then look at the Bronze Syllabus? What do you think?
We have Rumba, Cha Cha, Tango, Samba, all of which I love, and Rock and Roll which I'm not that keen on. Foxtrot we've just started so I think that can wait a while.
I am so excited about it. We have an hour but it seems simple to book more if we want.
Chris Stratton
New Member
For your lesson, the key thing to remember is that dancing isn't really about "what" but instead about "how" - and that is where most of the lesson time should go. You'll need just enough "what" to have a context for the "how".
Assuming you plan to take enough lessons over time for the teacher to really develop something in you, at this point you should communicate you goals in dancing and then let them figure out how to best help you accomplish them.
Assuming you plan to take enough lessons over time for the teacher to really develop something in you, at this point you should communicate you goals in dancing and then let them figure out how to best help you accomplish them.
Another Elizabeth
Active Member
Sounds like a good way to blow 6 months on stuff you're not that interested in anyway.
I agree with Chris - talk to your husband now about what you want to get out of dancing, then whatever you decide together, tell the instructor in the lesson. Then get out of the way and let him help you get there.
Gorme
Active Member
Instructor will ask you what you would like to work on and want to see your current abilities. Then the person will start you from the very basics of that dance and keep you there until you understand. Don't pressure the instructor about patterns. Learn the fundamental techniques that are taught.
It will be a very different feeling from your group classes as at first you will feel like you've learned absolutely nothing, but in the long run, you will become a much better dancer. Then you will be able to take all the patterns you see in group class and figure out how it is suppose to be executed or how you can modify them to fit you better.
It will be a very different feeling from your group classes as at first you will feel like you've learned absolutely nothing, but in the long run, you will become a much better dancer. Then you will be able to take all the patterns you see in group class and figure out how it is suppose to be executed or how you can modify them to fit you better.
contracheck
New Member
You probably don't get far, even if you're right. I have this well known Italian coach. He was teaching us the timing of the Double Reverse Spin in Waltz and Quick Step. So, I asked him how about the timing in Fox Trot and Tango. He gave us his famous half smile and, a twinkle in his eyes, told us that there was no Double Reverse Spin in Fox Trot and Tango. I was 100% sure that he was wrong, because I had seen an instruction tape (Blackpool Congress) where Massimo was teaching Double Reverse Spin in Tango and Fox Trot. Our teacher said that we can do that only in Open dance but not in Sylabus-adhering competitions; in Italy. he said, unlike in the US, the dancer will be kicked out instantly. I came home and opened the rule book. There was no DRS in FT and Tango. The world is not black and white.
gclarke
New Member
Thanks for the input everyone.
I hear what you are saying but I am so hoping EVERYTHING we've learned isn't wasted. I am assuming most will be in the Bronze Syllabus so I'm hoping we don't have to throw it all out although I can see that we may need to 'relearn' it.
Also, for the moment at least, we want to keep going to the local classes. It is a social occasion each week with a monthly dance and we've met some nice people. I don't want to lose that so for a while I'd like to do something similar to what we've learned.
I know in time decisions will have to be made but it's early days yet.
Gorme, I don't mind feeling like we haven't learned much. Going slow is fine as long as we are doing it right.
I think my biggest concern would be to start learning a heap of NEW patterns too quickly. That would be too much too soon. Hopefully that won't happen.
I hear what you are saying but I am so hoping EVERYTHING we've learned isn't wasted. I am assuming most will be in the Bronze Syllabus so I'm hoping we don't have to throw it all out although I can see that we may need to 'relearn' it.
Also, for the moment at least, we want to keep going to the local classes. It is a social occasion each week with a monthly dance and we've met some nice people. I don't want to lose that so for a while I'd like to do something similar to what we've learned.
I know in time decisions will have to be made but it's early days yet.
Gorme, I don't mind feeling like we haven't learned much. Going slow is fine as long as we are doing it right.
I think my biggest concern would be to start learning a heap of NEW patterns too quickly. That would be too much too soon. Hopefully that won't happen.
Chris Stratton
New Member
A lot of the things you've been asking about are not bronze, but silver or gold.
However, that doesn't mean they are entirely wasted. You'll see them again at some more appropriate point, and have the advantage of already knowing something about them.
While a "well designed" program of instruction might advance simply, the reality is that most people are getting multiple inputs, and those inputs aren't aligned. Quite often we see something introduced loosely in one setting and fool around with it a bit, while our serious work is at a more basic level and won't get to the point of including that figure for months or even years. This can actually be a good thing, because it takes some of the pressure off of the serious work time - there's a time for silly filler, and another time for serious learning of basic ideas.
I'd argue for keeping them separate. Don't worry so much about the class material, just crunch through it. Put your real attention into the different private lesson material, which will be chosen by that teacher to provide an appropriate context for more serious learning.
If the teacher understands that you are really there to learn, you won't get a lot of new material. Instead, you'll work on just a few things in a lot of depth.
gclarke
New Member
Oops - I wasn't implying in any way that I might know better than the instructor. I know there are many possibilities when I can't find something. I don't in any way want to check if it's right or wrong, just to be able to check something I've forgotten or feel I'm doing wrong.
At 56 my memory isn't all it should be and I'm in danger of repeatedly asking the same thing unless I can check or jot something down to jog my memory.
