Reasons to give up Tango

[brujo]

That's the oft reported discussion. People became interested because of the dance, started to learn, then found a whole load of strange, foreign, conventions and rules beyond their cultural understanding of 'social'. Some buy into that because it's 'cute', or gives them some meaning which they lacked (amongst other reasons to long and detailed, but appear in other threads), and become hard advocates of their take on that era. Everyone has to conform and there's one true way : theirs. Others just want to dance but value social contact.

I think there is a more subtle dimension here besides the ‘cute’. I think because the dance is a bit more serious and more technically demanding it works as a filter. The milongas being formal gives people an excuse to dress up in a more casual daily environment. There is a bit more psychological safety in the cabeceo system. At least in my area there is less of a meat market vibe.

I was pretty surprised when a follow mentioned she didn’t like bachata because “why would I want to be so close to a stranger” when she was literally chest to chest with me and other folks just a moment ago.

 

[Brummbaer]

I think there is a more subtle dimension here besides the ‘cute’

There are many reasons. That was just shorthand for a very, very, long list of reasons. These have been addressed in several previous threads.

Sure, some like the technical aspects (me! I can use that to dance). And if course it usually works well amongst those with a SEND background (introverts?). Some like the sexy, but safe, dance (e.g. Strictly/DWTS). Some (fewer) like open hold; some accept 'close'. And there we get to knowing some dance partner is 'safe'. Some get into that retro culture; others accept it, but don't. Some give many arguments for 'safety' in the cabeceo/mirada system (there's a case at some milongas and groups); others don't care. Some like a very formal milonga - which was simply somewhere to dance (I occasionally get dressed up very formally); some just want somewhere to dance without formalities.

It all depends what gets you, and the social scene there. For some it is, indeed, appalling, but some want that; others are friendly and welcoming. That's life. Other groups can be like that. We see it in AT.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

You don't know what you're talking about:

Swing currently has more of a culture than tango. We swap shellac records, wear flat caps and knickerbockers. The scene meets in vintage bars and at classic car parades.

And salsa also has its own cultural sphere. It only superficially conveys a vacation vibe. Keep in mind that the salsa scene can support many percussion teachers.

I think I do, sorry to disagree.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

My swing dancer housemate would tell me that if she had a Time Machine she wouldn’t even be able to go back to the places where swing was first danced because she isn’t black. The idea that swing is not a culture is super strange.

Don't think they are the same. There may be a culture surrounding swing and its origins (like jazz) but there is not a swing "culture" per se. In tango, its culture has developed, matured, and persisted over 100+ years and remains roughly the same. At least as far as Argentine tango is concerned, which is what we are talking about. There are swing "scenes," etc., and dance crazes (swing was a craze once) associated with all kinds of dance forms. These are not cultures and none have the depth and longevity of tango. Which is part and parcel of all the many misconceptions about learning tango, dancing tango, acceptance at milongas and so on. You can't separate them.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

The dance itself is beautiful and attractive to people, but perhaps a lot of the barriers that are great in Argentina in the 40s no longer apply to today’s society.

They don't. And the dance is still beautiful and attractive. But that doesn't negate its history or culture, or the difficulty of learning to dance traditional tango. It's wonderful that your friend came away with a positive impression though. We could use more of that.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I think because the dance is a bit more serious and more technically demanding it works as a filter.

I think that is also part of the problem of getting people involved. And it takes time to get a feel for the music.

 

[Brummbaer]

These are not cultures and none have the depth and longevity of tango. Which is part and parcel of all the many misconceptions about learning tango, dancing tango, acceptance at milongas and so on. You can't separate them

But you can separate them, and many do. Of course that depends how you define social AT. Only the real AT has the cultural aspects! Those picking up AT from that additional room in the swing/ceroc scene don't understand the real AT. But they're enjoying dancing. I agree it's not great, but don't call yourself 'advanced' if you can't dance with them.

I think that is also part of the problem of getting people involved.

A problem (not the only one!) is that, in some larger areas with a bigger scene, they've relied on new recruits rather than seeking to retain people.

Fortunately (I think) the teaching methods have improved and now mix technique with aspects of actually dancing. You don't have to spend 2 years learning to walk first! That's despised at some of these high-end milongas.

 

[brujo]

But you can separate them, and many do. Of course that depends how you define social AT. Only the real AT has the cultural aspects! Those picking up AT from that additional room in the swing/ceroc scene don't understand the real AT. But they're enjoying dancing. I agree it's not great, but don't call yourself 'advanced' if you can't dance with them.

I had an interesting chat once with an older gentleman about tango. He was from Argentina and learned to dance when he was 14. Moved to the US and started a pretty successful Milonga. His criticism was that back then tango was considered something that only the poor did, was looked down a bit on as he was growing up. But when the money came in from the US a ton of the traditional folklorists decided to become tango teachers. To him people like Gavito never really experienced the culture bit as he did. So to me it’s a bit weird that this imagined snapshot of culture is the “tradition” of tango that is so fervently held on to. It’s not like we’re still requiring chaperones at milongas.

 

[Brummbaer]

So to me it’s a bit weird that this imagined snapshot of culture is the “tradition” of tango that is so fervently held on to.

I don't find it 'weird' that this happens. Experience tells me that it's part of human nature: we seek some escape from our boring, mundane, lives that give some apparent meaning, or just pleasure. It's part of that intangible cultural heritage (however you view and justify that). I see it a little like Les Sapeurs du Congo (La Sape). We, sort of, appropriate the culture, or at least our perception of it. Just different if it's your lived experience.

back then tango was considered something that only the poor did

**the poor started it, but the wealthy moved it to the dancehalls of BsAs, Europe, and the US. Where else would you dance? And, of course, you want to exclude the riff-raff. That's life!

 

[Rabbit]

In tango, its culture has developed, matured, and persisted over 100+ years and remains roughly the same.

It's gone from Rioplatense lower class to Parisian salons to Buenos Aires mass market to underground to the stage to reinvented milongas to "social" media and tourism. How could the culture have remained the same?

 

[Brummbaer]

SEND

SEND? I meant STEM
Although maybe either works for the scenario - even if no-one read it.
(Shouldn't have been having a conversation about SEND provision beforehand)

 

[tangoing]

You don't know what you're talking about:

Swing currently has more of a culture than tango. We swap shellac records, wear flat caps and knickerbockers. The scene meets in vintage bars and at classic car parades.

And salsa also has its own cultural sphere. It only superficially conveys a vacation vibe. Keep in mind that the salsa scene can support many percussion teachers.

It’s part of argentine culture to think that everything else has no culture, why do you think the rest of s. america think argentineans are elitist/snobby (especially porteños)

 

[Brummbaer]

It’s part of argentine culture to think that everything else has no culture, why do you think the rest of s. america think argentineans are elitist/snobby (especially porteños)

That's a part of every group's/nation's culture! Everyone else is beneath contempt.

 

[Eleven!]

In the post she suggests that there were still a lot of people doing tango based on momentum from the mid-2000s to around 2014.

Actually Daniele is a "he" not a "she". Italian name so confusingly looks like a female name to us English speakers

 

[ArbeeNYC]

But you can separate them, and many do. Of course that depends how you define social AT. Only the real AT has the cultural aspects! Those picking up AT from that additional room in the swing/ceroc scene don't understand the real AT. But they're enjoying dancing. I agree it's not great, but don't call yourself 'advanced' if you can't dance with them.

Well, you can separate them, and many people do, by ignoring them or never learning how they are interrelated or intertwined. AT is not something we simply know, we have to learn it, we have to be taught, we have to be guided, mentored to some degree. If no one explains the history, if no one explains the music, if you have no idea what you are listening to, if you never learned the codes of the milonga, well, that is a problem of ignorance. Of course, that is how many people are taught. They think they are learning AT because they are taught something resembling something they've seen elsewhere, but without any of the foundational elements. Why do you think floorcraft is so atrocious in so many places? Why do so many people ignore the most fundamental aspects of the ronda, the cabeceo, etc.? Because these are not taught. Not only that, they are often disparaged as being beside the point. It's why I say, can you really call what we have here a "milonga" (or "milongas")?