Reasons to give up Tango

[ArbeeNYC]

It's gone from Rioplatense lower class to Parisian salons to Buenos Aires mass market to underground to the stage to reinvented milongas to "social" media and tourism. How could the culture have remained the same?

Because the culture of social tango, Argentinian tango has not changed. The traditions are still the traditions. Of course, we have changed, that is a good thing. I would say that, in spite of all the various movements you cite, tango has remained appreciably the same in its core. The Parisian salons were never a reflection of AT anyway but a European bastardization of the form. Same for the stage, some for media. Those are by no means the things that make AT what it is. If anything, they could be seen as an attempt to dilute its power through commercialism. I realize I'm pushing my argument a bit, but this gets to the essence of what I was saying about its culture above. In spite of all those distractions, in its heart of hearts it remains the same. But you need to do some work to get there.

 

[Brummbaer]

It's why I say, can you really call what we have here a "milonga" (or "milongas")?

Yes. To me, and many others, it's just somewhere to dance AT. It doesn't have to be some elitist gathering insisting on their perceptions of Argentine culture of yesteryear. It can be in the park, down by the river bank (al fresco - very nice at the moment), at the sea shore, in some bar... I don't have to dress up. I just need appropriate dance shoes for the surface.

I do recognise a spectrum of 'milongas'. Most cultures have their own rules on how to behave on a dancefloor, how to invite, and how to relate to a 'partner'. Nowadays some of those are frequently lacking - whether that's swing, salsa, or some BR. Nevertheless, they seem to get by and be happier. AT sometimes seems to create its own issues by some insisting on using a foreign set of rules for common situations.

Unfortunately, for most, their perception of AT is now simply a dance - demonstrated by some performers on the street, some theatre, or some TV programme. The 'cultural' aspects are something that few now teach (and sometimes have to be adapted to the locale). They just wanted to dance something like that - as with any other dance.

 

[Steve Pastor]

don't call yourself 'advanced' if you can't dance with them.

Returned from ATUSA Sunday night. Other than dancing with my regular partner I had one dynomite milonga tanda with someone who really knew the music and the vocabulary, and one tanda with a beginner. I rotated during the first lesson we took and had the all too common experience of being told by one or two of the "rotaters" that what I was doing was wrong, etc (one of two or three reasons I stopped taking lessons)

I can "give back to the community," dance with beginners and / or people who treat AT as a casual thing, (I took lessons for 6 months before going to a milonga because I didn't want someone to have a bad experience dancing a tanda with me) etc, but that wasn't enough to motivate me to really get back to it after COVID, the disappearance of my favorite practica and the lack of instructors teaching how to dance with the deep connection I favor, and the resultant lack of partners who dance THAT style of AT, were reasons why I hadn't quit AT in the last few years, but had slacked off in a big way.

It's like you trained for months and learned to walk on glaciers to climb a big mountain and enjoyed a wonderful view. If traffic and industry increases smog and climate change removes the snow and glaciers there's a lot less to motivate you to repeat the experience.

 

[fiesta0618]

The Parisian salons were never a reflection of AT anyway but a European bastardization of the form. Same for the stage, some for media. Those are by no means the things that make AT what it is.

No True Scotsman...

 

[brujo]

Because the culture of social tango, Argentinian tango has not changed. The traditions are still the traditions. Of course, we have changed, that is a good thing.

Cultural elements are always in flux. A tango teacher who was visiting mentioned that twenty years ago teaching women to lead felt novel and he got a ton of pushback on it, whereas today it is almost expected in his travels and reverse role classes are a pretty standard part of what he does. The recent snafu at el Beso shows that shift in the culture of social tango. Double roles or switching from one person leading to another following in a tanda is not taboo or frowned upon.

Things like hippie milongas where the dress codes are not as harshly observed. Even the embrace has shifted from a hard milonguero one to more flexible ones. My tango teacher talks about the shift from a bended knee preference that was very alt and neotango style from twenty years ago to a more upright one today. Even cortinas going from simple songs to Cumbia ravers feels like a shift.

 

[Brummbaer]

Cultural elements are always in flux. A tango teacher who was visiting mentioned that twenty years ago teaching women to lead felt novel and he got a ton of pushback on it, whereas today it is almost expected in his travels and reverse role classes are a pretty standard part of what he does. The recent snafu at el Beso shows that shift in the culture of social tango. Double roles or switching from one person leading to another following in a tanda is not taboo or frowned upon.

Things like hippie milongas where the dress codes are not as harshly observed. Even the embrace has shifted from a hard milonguero one to more flexible ones. My tango teacher talks about the shift from a bended knee preference that was very alt and neotango style from twenty years ago to a more upright one today. Even cortinas going from simple songs to Cumbia ravers feels like a shift.

But there's always some plucky elite milonga upholding the one true way against the odds... until they die out, or someone younger adopts the cause and steps in.

It's just unfortunate, and more frequently a loss to social AT overall, if that's where you go for an early-stage milonga and don't have the confidence.

 

[Brummbaer]

Returned from ATUSA Sunday night...

You raise several interesting points

had the all too common experience of being told by one or two of the "rotaters" that what I was doing was wrong, etc (one of two or three reasons I stopped taking lessons)

I've had that in the early days. Notably someone who insisted on the 8CB to get to the cross whereas I just led it walking (and now, sometimes, I don't move on the floor to lead that cross)

However I usually ask for feedback. For some beginner followers they want a stronger lead; for advanced followers they're helpful over the whole range, or just some minor point for them

I can "give back to the community," dance with beginners and / or people who treat AT as a casual thing, (I took lessons for 6 months before going to a milonga because I didn't want someone to have a bad experience dancing a tanda with me) etc

Which just emphasises that you don't need a qualification to teach AT. It's that difference in a práctica between telling someone what they should do or referring back to the teacher.

It's like you trained for months and learned to walk on glaciers to climb a big mountain and enjoyed a wonderful view. If traffic and industry increases smog and climate change removes the snow and glaciers there's a lot less to motivate you to repeat the experience.

Yes. You have a great tanda and you want to go back there. I understand that. But I also remember my own struggles to get there - and I'd like to share the result - that 'wonderful view' (without it being too crowded and certainly without some of the gatekeepers).

 

[Miradamiranda]

the lack of instructors teaching how to dance with the deep connection I favor, and the resultant lack of partners who dance THAT style of AT, were reasons why I hadn't quit AT in the last few years

How would you go about teaching this, say you were asked to develop a curriculum for, or simply asked for advice:

how an experienced lead would teach
- a lead
- a follower
How an experienced follower would teach
- a lead
-a follower

About how to dance with deep connection. Also, does it mean the same thing for everyone?

Purely based on where you are now or if you were a highly qualified teacher.

 

[Rabbit]

Because the culture of social tango, Argentinian tango has not changed. The traditions are still the traditions. Of course, we have changed, that is a good thing. I would say that, in spite of all the various movements you cite, tango has remained appreciably the same in its core. The Parisian salons were never a reflection of AT anyway but a European bastardization of the form. Same for the stage, some for media. Those are by no means the things that make AT what it is.

I think current international milonga/event culture is just as much a distortion. Too sanitized and formal (and also commercialized.)

 

[Bailango]

The main reason was that they just didn't feel welcome in the dance compared to others. Feelings of exclusion and alienation when attending a milonga vs one where people welcomed you, introduced you to people, asked you to dance, didn't leave you sitting out all night by yourself. I went to my first west coast swing event in a while and got asked to dance by ten different people - 3 men and 7 women. In tango I remember sitting by myself in my first three milongas after the class, nobody even said hi.

This indeed real experience of how Milonga is cold until you become an insider and other social dances are more welcoming to strangers. It becomes a specially challenging for introverts. Ironically there is significant presence of introverts in all kinds of social dancing including tango. Perhaps the reason for that is an introvert doesn’t have to expend energy to get dances than say compared to going to bar where to create a connection you have to indulge in small talk. Small talk can be taxing for many people.

In big or large tango scenes, it is easier to survive without being an insider. There many including self, who can enjoy milonga without trying to socialize in organically.

 

[Bailango]

that worked when it was super popular don’t work now in times of famine.

When was it super popular? In my experience more people are dancing tango today than before. It has spread to more towns and cities. While earlier it was centered around a few tango cities (in 90s and early 2000s). The festivals and events also proliferated more post 2015.

 

[Bailango]

Tango is not a dance, it's a culture. Though we often forget that.

I beg to differ. Sorry but that is a hog wash. Almost every social dances emanates from a culture. Tango doesn’t have a monopoly on it. Salsa or bachata have as much or more culture affinity attached to it including in present times despite their popularity. There are far more “salseros” than “milongueros”. Salseros as in those for whom salsa is a way of life.

 

[Rabbit]

Salsa or bachata have as much or more culture affinity attached to it including in present times despite their popularity. There are far more “salseros” than “milongueros”. Salseros as in those for whom salsa is a way of life.

How do you define way of life? And how do you distinguish a culture affinity from simple addiction? (this could apply to both salsa, tango and insert_random_dance_here)

 

[opendoor]

..In my experience more people are dancing tango today than before...

I've been familiar with the situation in my city since the turn of the century. The number of milongas has been declining since around 2015, even before the pandemic. The number of people who make a living from tango has halved. Classes are no longer full, and venues are closing.

 

[Steve Pastor]

How would you go about teaching this, say you were asked to develop a curriculum for, or simply asked for advice:

This refers to my preferred style which I described as having "a deep connection."

First thing is getting comfortable with the close contact that's required. Then you have to get comfortable with sharing your balance with a partner. That goes along with learning to follow your center, placing the free leg underneath if you feel off balance, hopefully coordinated with music.
This involves a lot of moving a shared axis forward, backward and side ways. Then you can add in weight changes: simultaneously then led with a simple turn of the torso and making sure your partner knows where your weight is.
This is just a beginning of course.
My beginner partner seems to be getting it, so I guess I'm teaching it.