Reasons to give up Tango

[Steve Pastor]

how to help others develop the ability to communicate really really well.

Back in 2003 to maybe 2005 when I was taking a boatload of lessons across the river in Portland, a prevailing thought was that there were no patterns in Argentine Tango. While that was obviously not correct, what was being taught was that the dance is not pattern based. Meagan Pingree, Bill Alsup, Steven Payne were more let's do a pattern and now let's learn how to vary or break the pattern.
I never learned the 8 count basic because no one that I had lessons with taught it.

So how do you communicate a lead, and how do you implement what is led?
The basis of that communication begins with the very simple but very important basics of an "energized" embrace that I described earlier. Maintain an integrated posture with enough upper body contact so that you can "feel the music" (HAD to work that in!) expressed in your partner's slightest movements. Also learn to take definite steps and move your part of a shared axis onto that weighted foot. Etc

Rather than learning patterns, the emphasis is on moving your foot and axis to be under your center while keeping yourself integrated while maintaining integration as a couple.

I recently took a look at the Cacho Dante thread started back in 210. I wrote about using my partner's axis and momentum to "decide" where we as a couple will go next. ( had recently returned from a Skippy Blair West Coast Swing intensive, and Skippy kind of blew up when I told her that's how I approach that dance.) I am sometimes asked to repeat something that just happened and my reply is often that I have no idea what I just did.
It was interesting, too, that in that thread I was already bemoaning the local demise of my favorite style.

 

[Bailango]

I know. But I disagree. Argentina seems to feel it's part of their cultural heritage. So it's clearly more than a dance for them. I see no similarity with other dances.

So do Cuba, Puerto Rico, and Dominican Republic. Most Argentines do not dance tango. Average Argentine barely knows much about tango and is likely to know 10x more about football (which is a craze there). Where as dancing to salsa music is fairly common at family gatherings and block parties in the carribean as well as Latin America.

Salsa music is also far more popular than the dance.

 

[Bailango]

You go to dance events and the Cubans definitively dance it differently.

I do not understand what you mean. It is not just timba. Casino is primary a term used in the USA. Outside USA it is called Cuban salsa or salsa cubana. For example, Casino is not an easily recognized label if you go to Europe.

P.S. Cuba is birthplace of Afro-Latin rhythms and music tradition.

 

[Bailango]

The idea that large numbers of people - particularly regarding women - actually like to dance chest-to-chest with strangers strikes me as rather bizarre. I have also read posts suggesting that, in the early days, prior to the "Milonguero" trend, rejections were significantly less common.

Honestly I totally failed to understand what you are trying to say.

Society, and the sub-culture of AT, has also changed.

Is there a culture of AT and then a subculture of AT

Yes changes in societal attitudes will definitely get reflected in the dance floor. No matter the dance.

Yes, it was. It was initially 'perturbing', except with that SO, but it becomes normal and acceptable amongst friends and acquaintances (see also discussions on who we invite, whether they're 'known', and how).

For many (that is most of the population) the very concept of partner dance itself is “perturbing”. Close hold or open hold is only a point of discussions among the dancers.

Tango culture gets to that being accepted - but still sometimes shocking to those who don't dance AT, or other dances requiring close hold.

Salsa (as an example) is generally not danced in close hold. Yet it is still evokes similar reactions among non-dancers as you are trying to express above.

Historically I suppose a 'close' hold was an objective amongst the unattached with aspirations beyond dance. Now it's become about the dance.

Wasn’t ballroom close hold and got codified in 1920s?

 

[Bailango]

In some like fusion they navigate this by being heavily verbally consent focused like asking permission if it is ok to get close. But in micro close embrace is more the norm than open. In others like bachata they just let the follow dictate the proximity desired.

First time I am hearing this animal called micro fusion

Fusion community is too much into trying too hard to be politically correct and fake performative. Like ceroc, fusion has no roots.

My experience is that a ton of folks in the fusion community actually really like the technical bits of tango. It’s a great match. They already like the close connection. But very often they don’t go to the tango events due to the “coldness” of the people and cost. Similar story from blues friends.

While I am staunch critic of Tango community for its snobbishness, sense of misplaced elitism, and coldness, I am glad it is keeping the Fusionistas out. Last thing I would wish to see is Fusion influencing Tango. Which would invariably happen if Fusion people start liking Tango

 

[tangoing]

For many (that is most of the population) the very concept of partner dance itself is “perturbing”. Close hold or open hold is only a point of discussions among the dancers.

Don’t think that’s true among the younger (40 and below) generation at all. General club dancing where girls are grinding on guys is way more risqué than the majority of partner dances. Only the partner dances that incorporate that type of movement (bachata sensual and zouk?) would be seen as perturbing imo.

 

[Brummbaer]

Is there a culture of AT and then a subculture of AT

Depends on your definitions and your viewpoint.

Yes - there's the top-level 'stereotype'. Probably what you thought before tango found you, or maybe whatever is sold to Unesco, and then sub-cultures for elite clubs, village halls, tango rooms, street and stage performances, 'BsAs', Berlin & other European and US and Canadian cities. Probably asian, and oceania as well. They have some uniting thread, but each is different in its own way.

Close hold or open hold is only a point of discussions among the dancers.

I'd disagree. A young relative, finding out that we danced AT, asked: Isn't that where you dance really close? Others, even older, can have a similar view, perhaps even having once danced themselves - maybe in an era of BR, or even in the 'disco' era.

Don’t think that’s true among the younger (40 and below) generation at all. General club dancing where girls are grinding on guys is way more risqué than the majority of partner dances.

Depends on your generation. 'Page 3', and top-shelf mags, the arrival of 'the pill', feminism, societal wealth, school snd further education, and many other factors, like where you grew up, or travelled, changed perspectives. Difficult to say about some of those surfing the internet's social media, or gaming, in their bedroom, or basement, in their parent's house.

Wasn’t ballroom close hold and got codified in 1920s?

Yes. My grandparents' generation. And the objective was similar. That's, sort of (for most!), what's changed as AT, and those partner 'BR' dances become just another dance (but not all 'BR' dances are 'close' - see the BR forum). There are now easier ways to achieve that objective of meeting and 'getting the girl'. Dual-role wasn't an objective but a means to an end.

There are numerous strata through society depending on age, relationship, snd numerous other factors, with differing attitudes, desires and objectives.

 

[Brummbaer]

While I am staunch critic of Tango community for its snobbishness, sense of misplaced elitism, and coldness, I am glad it is keeping the Fusionistas out. Last thing I would wish to see is Fusion influencing Tango. Which would invariably happen if Fusion people start liking Tango

Agree

But there are some things, like speedtandas (2 song tanda) and ditching some códigos, which are beneficial in some circumstances. But, as we see with poor floorcraft, some etiquettes are desirable.

 

[brujo]

Fusion community is too much into trying too hard to be politically correct and fake performative. Like ceroc, fusion has no roots.

A lot of ideas come from tango and blues. One of the earlier events is tangoed in blues in San Francisco and those dances have an older richer history. Alex Krebs from Oregon was involved in that - TUIB SF - About . In the Portland area at least tango is often the basis of some of the instructors, while others do start with dances like swing. I'd say I see about ten to fifteen people in my area that do both frequently.

I don't know your area or what fusion looks like there, but tango is heavily featured in the fusion scenes in Oregon. For example, two week immersions in fusion will have deep focused classes in zouk, kizomba and Argentine tango - MYRTLEWOOD FUSION INTENSIVE .

I do agree, even a lot of fusion folks I've spoken to say that a lot of the consent stuff they do can feel very performative and doesn't actually work. But I also see people having a lot of the same opinions in tango around issues like women leading or alt tango.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Timba and Casino ( salsa ) to Cubans has the same vibe to me. You go to dance events and the Cubans definitively dance it differently. And it has a religious bit to it from the Orishas and rumba that is as profound as the European immigrant experience. And it also has the tourist element that tango does when you go to a place like Havana. Similarly Dominican bachata. Forró in Brazil. It’s not too clear to me what makes tango stand out differently than those.

Isn't bachata fairly recent? Forró does have a legacy, but I'm not familiar with Brazilian dance. With tango, I think it is a combination of its legacy, its duration, its global appreciation (often misunderstood), its ongoing popularity, and its mythos. As well as the very high quality of much of the music, which has endured for decades. Not to mention its expansion by musicians like Piazzola into the "classical" music world.

 

[Bailango]

Isn't bachata fairly recent?

Depends on what you mean by recent. Bachata evolved out of son, musically. It was first played by Cuban musician but became popular in DR. The dance has been in DR for several decades. Another DR dance that is famous is merengue. Bachata, Merengue, Cumbia (from Colombia but also very popular in Mexico), are all of same vintage. Tango can be called recent if you compare it to say Flamenco which is several centuries old.

With tango, I think it is a combination of its legacy, its duration, its global appreciation (often misunderstood), its ongoing popularity, and its mythos. As well as the very high quality of much of the music, which has endured for decades. Not to mention its expansion by musicians like Piazzola into the "classical" music world.

In which case salsa beats Tango hands down on each of above parameters. As music it is hugely popular in comparison to Tango. Tango shares rhythmic origins with Salsa (to an extent via habenara). They both evolved around the same time as a dance though what we call salsa changed and evolved a lot more than Tango. Salsa communities everywhere are much bigger. It is found in a lot more places in Europe and Asia, than tango is.

 

[opendoor]

Isn't bachata fairly recent?

Bailango already knows of my differing opinion, but maybe you don't yet. Bachata is descended from the Bolero cubano. Even if it's not immediately obvious, Bachata and Milonga are half-siblings. Their father had affairs in the Dominican Republic and in Argentina.

..With tango, I think it is a combination of its legacy, its duration.. As well as the very high quality of much of the music...

"Salsa" has an equally long tradition, has undergone the same transformation from folklore to sophisticated music, and in its classical period produced almost as many shellac records and bands as the tango craze. And the "Salsa" (the term didn't exist back then) big bands toured the world on the same ocean liners as their tango colleagues.

 

[Bailango]

Bailango already knows of my differing opinion, but maybe you don't yet. Bachata is descended from the Bolero cubano. Even if it's not immediately obvious, Bachata and Milonga are half-siblings. Their father had affairs in the Dominican Republic and in Argentina.

I wrote the same in the post above yours. You are right about bolero —> bachata evolution. To nitpick bachata evolved out of bolero son.

"Salsa" has an equally long tradition, has undergone the same transformation from folklore to sophisticated music, and in its classical period produced almost as many shellac records and bands as the tango craze. And the "Salsa" (the term didn't exist back then) big bands toured the world on the same ocean liners as their tango colleagues.

This!!

Since salsa is an umbrella term for several different rhythms and a salsa music might be mix of two or more rhythms, many people aren’t aware of rich heritage of each of the rhythm.

 

[opendoor]

Argentina... So it's clearly more than a dance for them..

On the contrary, Arbee, there are significantly more tango-free communities among Argentinians, at least in Europe.
It is only through the diaspora that these people are able to learn tango and even gain access to this part of their culture.

 

[Miradamiranda]

All the Argentinians I know living outside of Argentina - except for those who came to make a living with teaching tango etc - have all learned outside of Argentina. Some friends of mine told me they were so often expected to dance just because they were Argentinian, that they thought they might as well learn it.