Rebooting your Argentine Tango
- Thread starter Steve Pastor
- Start date
sixela
Well-Known Member
I think anyone who had kids _after_ having taken up tango has ;-).
Browsed a bit through Alberto Paz and Valorie Hart's "Gotta Tango" last night. I picked it up to confirm that, at least in this book, there is no ethnic African contribution to Argentine tango. In spite of that obvious ommission, I am enjoying the book. AT looks like a cool dance!
This fits right in with my going, again, to the Sunday practica here.
Just as I thought, I'm a bit rusty at certain things. But I am looking forward to tomorrow, if only to go and work on the basics of the dance.
This fits right in with my going, again, to the Sunday practica here.
Just as I thought, I'm a bit rusty at certain things. But I am looking forward to tomorrow, if only to go and work on the basics of the dance.
There is decidedly an African contribution. The candombe rhythm which is integral to tango, and is especially audible in milonga, is an African rhythm. The candombe rhythm is also the foundation of other South American dances like same. I think of it as dum da-dum dum, or da-da da-dum dum
tangomonkey
Active Member
What is your source?
I took a look at this, because, back in 2009, I put a lot of time into the wikipedia article titled candombe.
Since wikipedia can be a churning mess that CAN produce good articles, but often not, some of this referenced material has disappeared.
In the third decade of the nineteenth century the word candombe began to appear in Buenos Aires, referring to self-help dancing societies founded by persons of African descent." the term means "pertaining to blacks" in Ki-Kongo. In Buenos Aires it meant more than a dance or a music or a congregation, but all of the above.[1]
Candombe the dance was a local fusion of various African traditions. A complicated choreography included a final section with wild rhythms, freely improvised steps, and energetic, semi-athletic movements.[2]
Afro Argentines accented the hips, and Afro Uruguayans accented the shoulders.[3]
According to George Reid Andrews, the historian of Buenos Aires' Black communities, after the middle of the nineteenth century younger blacks in particular abandoned the candombe in favor of dances from Europe such as the mazurka. Meanwhile, whites began to imitate the steps and movements of blacks. Calling themselves Los Negros, upper class portenos in the 1860s and 1870s blackened their faces and formed one of the carnival processions each year.[4]
A new dance, which embodied the movement and style of the candombe, and called a "tango" with couples dancing apart, rather than in an embrace, was created by the African-Argentines of Mondongo the year 1877. So wrote a man who identified himself as "Viejo Tanguero" in a September 1913 article in Buenos Aires's first mass circulation popular newspaper.[5]
In a book published in 1883 Ventura Lynch - a noted contemporary student of the dances and folklore of Buenos Aires Province noted the influence the African Argentine dancers had on the compadritos, who apparently frequented the Africa-Argentine dance venues, "the milonga is danced only by the compadritos of the city, who have created it as a mockery of the dances the blacks hold in their own places' (authors italics).[6]
Since wikipedia can be a churning mess that CAN produce good articles, but often not, some of this referenced material has disappeared.
In the third decade of the nineteenth century the word candombe began to appear in Buenos Aires, referring to self-help dancing societies founded by persons of African descent." the term means "pertaining to blacks" in Ki-Kongo. In Buenos Aires it meant more than a dance or a music or a congregation, but all of the above.[1]
Candombe the dance was a local fusion of various African traditions. A complicated choreography included a final section with wild rhythms, freely improvised steps, and energetic, semi-athletic movements.[2]
Afro Argentines accented the hips, and Afro Uruguayans accented the shoulders.[3]
According to George Reid Andrews, the historian of Buenos Aires' Black communities, after the middle of the nineteenth century younger blacks in particular abandoned the candombe in favor of dances from Europe such as the mazurka. Meanwhile, whites began to imitate the steps and movements of blacks. Calling themselves Los Negros, upper class portenos in the 1860s and 1870s blackened their faces and formed one of the carnival processions each year.[4]
A new dance, which embodied the movement and style of the candombe, and called a "tango" with couples dancing apart, rather than in an embrace, was created by the African-Argentines of Mondongo the year 1877. So wrote a man who identified himself as "Viejo Tanguero" in a September 1913 article in Buenos Aires's first mass circulation popular newspaper.[5]
In a book published in 1883 Ventura Lynch - a noted contemporary student of the dances and folklore of Buenos Aires Province noted the influence the African Argentine dancers had on the compadritos, who apparently frequented the Africa-Argentine dance venues, "the milonga is danced only by the compadritos of the city, who have created it as a mockery of the dances the blacks hold in their own places' (authors italics).[6]
- Tango The Art History of Love. Robert Farris Thompson. 2005. Pantheon Books. pages 96, 97. ISBN 0-375-40931-9
- Tango! The Dance, the Song, the Story. Collier, Cooper, Azzi and Martin. 1995. Thames and Hudson, Ltd. page 43. ISBN 0-500-01671-2
- Tango The Art History of Love. Robert Farris Thompson. 2005. Pantheon Books. pages 96, 97. ISBN 0-375-40931-9
- Tango! The Dance, the Song, the Story. Collier, Cooper, Azzi and Martin. 1995. Thames and Hudson, Ltd. pages 43, 44. ISBN 0-500-01671-2 citing George Reid Andrews. The Afro-Argentines of Buenos Aires, 1800-1900. 1908. pages 161 and 164.
- Tango! The Dance, the Song, the Story. Collier, Cooper, Azzi and Martin. 1995. Thames and Hudson, Ltd. pages 44, 45. ISBN 0-500-01671-2 citing George Reid Andrews. The Afro-Argentines of Buenos Aires, 1800-1900. 1908. pages 161 and 164.
- Tango! The Dance, the Song, the Story. Collier, Cooper, Azzi and Martin. 1995. Thames and Hudson, Ltd. pages 44, 45. ISBN 0-500-01671-2 citing George Reid Andrews. The Afro-Argentines of Buenos Aires, 1800-1900. 1908. pages 161 and 164.
tangomonkey
Active Member
The habanera rhythm(s) are integral, not candombe, but some rhythmic influence perhaps occurred. I think the dum da-dum dum pattern is the habanera (syllables are next to useless to describe rhythm). And the da-da da-dum dum is a version of it, called the syncopa by tango musicians. I’ve written quite a bit about the habanera and its close relatives, the syncopa and the 3-3-2, here are two posts:
http://www.tangomusicology.com/wordpres/the-habanera-rhythm/
http://www.tangomusicology.com/wordpres/habanera-variations/
In a comment on the first of the links I was asked:
“everyone says: Habanera influenced the milonga. Who can tell me what influenced Habanera? when did it come to live? earlier than 1870? And how Cuban influence came to Argentina”?
I responded:
Well those are questions which can’t be adequately answered in a few sentences in a comment, but a few points might help.
Carlos Vega found the earliest appearances of the habanera rhythm in rabbinical collections from late medieval Spain. Gilbert Chase says the habanera rhythm also appears in the 15th century Spanish court song collection, Cancionero de Palacio. So the rhythm has been known to musicans for a very long time. But obviously not called “habanera” prior to popularization in Cuba (Havana, specifically).
The rhythm likely came from Spain to the Americas. Vega says by 1850 there were several popular song types using the rhythm and it was common to all Hispanic American music. In Cuba the rhythm eventually was used to create the driving pulse of the Cuban Habanera dance. The rhythm was played repetitively in the rhythm instruments, and that was new.
The Cuban Habanera dance became very popular and naturally so did the music. Sheet music was available, published in Cuba. Thompson says sailors from Cuba brought the habanera dance and its music to Montevideo in the 1850s.
Both Vega and Chase were musicologists. Thompson is an African Art Historian whose ideas about music are, shall I politely say, less than rigorous scholarship.
I don’t mean to refer to my site all the time, and my apologies. I have no financial interest in tango and make no money from the site. I'm only providing information and it’s simply that I've written about these things before and I’d rather not spend (too much) time repeating myself.
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I personally have no problem with you referring to your site. It has a huge about of very high value content, that I can only begin to digest. I applaud you for your efforts.
Again, personally, a bit of text and a link is much appreciated if you don't want to repeat yourself.
Regarding Thompson, yes, his qualifications to write about music, have been noted. I find myself in the same position in writing about swing. He wrote a number of articles on music, mostly Latin. I have one he did on the most important dance music of the fifties, and I just recently found one he did on Pachanga. Still, I put him in the same category as someone like Robert Palmer who wrote about rock and roll and got quite some of wrong, based on what musicologists have have written. But there you have to find things like masters and PhD theses.
Are Vega and Chase available in English?
Again, personally, a bit of text and a link is much appreciated if you don't want to repeat yourself.
Regarding Thompson, yes, his qualifications to write about music, have been noted. I find myself in the same position in writing about swing. He wrote a number of articles on music, mostly Latin. I have one he did on the most important dance music of the fifties, and I just recently found one he did on Pachanga. Still, I put him in the same category as someone like Robert Palmer who wrote about rock and roll and got quite some of wrong, based on what musicologists have have written. But there you have to find things like masters and PhD theses.
Are Vega and Chase available in English?
tangomonkey
Active Member
Chase wrote in two excellent books, "The Music of Spain" and "A Guide to the Music of Latin America". Both long out of print. I've read them but don't have a copy of the "Guide" - should check Amazon used or e-bay, you never know...
Haven't found any translations of Vega but have worked my way through some of what I've been able to find. Check out the Spanish wiki page and have a look at his publications. If only... http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Vega
Several authors have quoted Vega, Chase and Jo Baim for example, with footnotes and references.
Funny you should mention her.
Jo Baim has a PhD in Music from the University of Cincinnati and her thesis is listed in 1997.
Ethnomusicology Annual List of Dissertation and Theses.
Author(s): Jennifer C. Post
Source: Ethnomusicology, Vol. 44, No. 1 (Winter, 2000), pp. 155-160
Her book "Tango - Creation of a Cultural Icon" was published in 2007.
"El Tango andaluz y el tango argentine" La Prensa (Buenos Aires) April 10, 1932, and gives her translations.
regarding Vega, whom she cites repeatedly, one footnote reads...
Vega does not say what music was contained in the late medieval rabbinical collections. Given the state of notation at that time, it is likely he was using hyperbole to establish the long Hispanic ownership of the habanera.
Meanwhile, she also notes the work of Juan Alverez, author of "Origines de la musica Argentina" c 1900.
"Alverez had defended an African origin of all three types;" those being "the [Argentine] tango, the habanera, and the milonga." p 106 paperback edition
It's interesting that she is identified as assistant church organist, freelance choreographer, and Oblate in the Benedictine Order, and does not mention her degree in the book.
Jo Baim has a PhD in Music from the University of Cincinnati and her thesis is listed in 1997.
Ethnomusicology Annual List of Dissertation and Theses.
Author(s): Jennifer C. Post
Source: Ethnomusicology, Vol. 44, No. 1 (Winter, 2000), pp. 155-160
Her book "Tango - Creation of a Cultural Icon" was published in 2007.
"El Tango andaluz y el tango argentine" La Prensa (Buenos Aires) April 10, 1932, and gives her translations.
regarding Vega, whom she cites repeatedly, one footnote reads...
Vega does not say what music was contained in the late medieval rabbinical collections. Given the state of notation at that time, it is likely he was using hyperbole to establish the long Hispanic ownership of the habanera.
Meanwhile, she also notes the work of Juan Alverez, author of "Origines de la musica Argentina" c 1900.
"Alverez had defended an African origin of all three types;" those being "the [Argentine] tango, the habanera, and the milonga." p 106 paperback edition
It's interesting that she is identified as assistant church organist, freelance choreographer, and Oblate in the Benedictine Order, and does not mention her degree in the book.
tangomonkey
Active Member
What was her dissertation topic? Her name doesn't seem to be listed in that issue of Ethnomusicology (http://www.ethnomusicology.org/?page=OGB_441), and a site-wide search turns up nothing for "baim".
About Vega's claim on the rabbinical collections - who know's for sure one way or the other? I don't! Chase makes the claim to have seen the rhythm in other Spanish collections. He doesn't say if the entire rhythmic pattern (dotted 8th-16-8th-8th) is there, or even how it was used. Vega has been criticized for his Euro-centric views and unwillingness to accept influences from other cultures. The main problem is evidence. There is a thousand year written record in the West - music in some form of notation or other and numerous theory texts survive. Oral tradition societies have neither. Ethnomusicolgy is more anthropology than "pure" musicology.
Spanish music is more rhythmic in nature than other European music, due to the centuries long Moorish influence. There is a great variety of rhythms and rhythmic patterns, likely influenced by Arabic music. Chase writes a little about this. There are always cross-cultural influences and trying to separate them out and seek ultimate origins is not likely. Moorish/Spanish/Indigenous peoples/African...Tracing origins and influences and development is guesswork. Scholars will disagree, yet if there were definitive historical evidence there would be consensus rather than polar opposite views.
We have to clearly separate the music from the dance. It seems logical for African rhythms to have influenced both. But personally, in terms of music, any African influence ends with rhythm. The syncopation (dotted 8th-16th) in the habanera is simple and very common, been around for centuries - nothing special in other words. Using it as the pulse, in percussion instruments, in the exact pattern (dotted 8th-16th-8th-8th), people claim is Afro-Cuban. A reasonable and straight forward conclusion, I think.
I haven't read Juan Alvarez, but I assume the quote you used from his book refers to the dances. The melodic structure, simple harmonies, and musical forms used in milonga (then tango) are decidedly European. It is just silly to claim any musical influence other than the repetitive syncopated rhythmic pulse. And it's not like dance music doesn't normally have a repetitive pulse of some sort - that's what makes it dance music! Habanera syncopation is enveloped within a very European musical framework.
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I found that listing through JSTOR, available on line through my local library, by running a query for her name. Her book is one of two tango related books I've actually purchased.
I think it would be a good one for you to look at, too.
My copy is somewhere else right now, so I can't give you any more specifics. I do remember, though, that she did research in Buenos Aires in the archives that have been created for that important cultural contribution of the people of the Rio de Plata. It's particularly amusing in a nostalgic way, when she notes that it was a time when things were in actual card catalogs.
Funny you should mention dance!
There, I think some "African" influence is more observable. Some, but not many I hasten to add, of the movements in some of the styles, are unknown in Europe. At least I haven't seen them in recreations, or read about them.* And it's not that I haven't tried to find them. And, I suspect that it has as least as much to do with low social status / lack of being told what is not appropriate, when being accepted by other dancers, as it has to do with "Africa."
* An awareness of an Irish step dancing style that uses an non erect posture and "shuffing steps," a freely changing posture that was observed in Hungarian dance, "spieling" and schottische as two major components of the Texas Tommy, etc, are some of the off shoots of that search. But nothing uses the hips like African dance, at least as a major influence in the Americas that I can find.
I think it would be a good one for you to look at, too.
My copy is somewhere else right now, so I can't give you any more specifics. I do remember, though, that she did research in Buenos Aires in the archives that have been created for that important cultural contribution of the people of the Rio de Plata. It's particularly amusing in a nostalgic way, when she notes that it was a time when things were in actual card catalogs.
Funny you should mention dance!
There, I think some "African" influence is more observable. Some, but not many I hasten to add, of the movements in some of the styles, are unknown in Europe. At least I haven't seen them in recreations, or read about them.* And it's not that I haven't tried to find them. And, I suspect that it has as least as much to do with low social status / lack of being told what is not appropriate, when being accepted by other dancers, as it has to do with "Africa."
* An awareness of an Irish step dancing style that uses an non erect posture and "shuffing steps," a freely changing posture that was observed in Hungarian dance, "spieling" and schottische as two major components of the Texas Tommy, etc, are some of the off shoots of that search. But nothing uses the hips like African dance, at least as a major influence in the Americas that I can find.
tangomonkey
Active Member
...she did research in Buenos Aires in the archives that have been created for that important cultural contribution of the people of the Rio de Plata. It's particularly amusing in a nostalgic way, when she notes that it was a time when things were in actual card catalogs.
How is that amusing- I spent my 20s in university libraries going through card catalogs and wandering mazes of books, and the state of the art was microfiche.
It's amusing because it's nostalgic?
I still sometimes look at microfiche of old newspapers for my WCS research. It's very tedious, as you no doubt are aware. I'm finding things that I find it hard to believe anyone would found by using of the digitized, searchable versions of things. We are still a long way from everything being available, though. And I remain a huge fan of books. But that may be nostalgia, too. And I find that somehow amusing.
I still sometimes look at microfiche of old newspapers for my WCS research. It's very tedious, as you no doubt are aware. I'm finding things that I find it hard to believe anyone would found by using of the digitized, searchable versions of things. We are still a long way from everything being available, though. And I remain a huge fan of books. But that may be nostalgia, too. And I find that somehow amusing.
Back to the reboot...
Very interesting day at the practica after taking several weeks off. We were asked if there was anything we wanted to work on, and since no one else spoke up, and there were no beginner beginners, I said, "gancho." This is part because I have a plan to do a "real" gancho in West Coast Swing, if I can find someone who can manage it along with me. And because Paz / Hart make it sound so straight forward.
My biggest problem right now seems to be stepping forward too soon rather than waiting for the woman to complete her step on the outside leg. I had two complete series of classes with Alex Krebs years ago, where we worked on this. But, I could only make it work on the social floor on very rare occasions. I was actually able to get it pretty well today. There has always been the challenge of making this thing work "organically," and in timing it with an "event" in the music. And I seem to have a better sense of that than I had back then.
What was interesting, too, were the other issues that came up during the lesson. I'm getting lots of good feed back from Bill and Megan.
Very interesting day at the practica after taking several weeks off. We were asked if there was anything we wanted to work on, and since no one else spoke up, and there were no beginner beginners, I said, "gancho." This is part because I have a plan to do a "real" gancho in West Coast Swing, if I can find someone who can manage it along with me. And because Paz / Hart make it sound so straight forward.
My biggest problem right now seems to be stepping forward too soon rather than waiting for the woman to complete her step on the outside leg. I had two complete series of classes with Alex Krebs years ago, where we worked on this. But, I could only make it work on the social floor on very rare occasions. I was actually able to get it pretty well today. There has always been the challenge of making this thing work "organically," and in timing it with an "event" in the music. And I seem to have a better sense of that than I had back then.
What was interesting, too, were the other issues that came up during the lesson. I'm getting lots of good feed back from Bill and Megan.