Regress

[IngaSv]

Unfortunately...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/healthtrending/this-is-one-of-the-earliest-signs-you’re-getting-old/ar-AAnGRIp?li=BBnba9O

That's why it's crucial to understand one's own body, while one still has the
innate instincts to feel the nuances, to know what good balance really entails.
Oftentimes, it's quite contrary to what one is taught.

Yes but what is considered to be "healthy" people by a lot of studies is just "average with no significant health problems". Plus typically the average person with no significant health problems doesn't engage in regular activities which whould require very much vestibular function. It's like a lot of other things in the body - if you don't use it, it'll slowly deteriorate.

I know plenty of older folks who dance regularly who have only continued improving in their dancing and have a better spatial awareness and body control than when they started. It's a lot of them are social dancers but a lot do also compete in the Senior categories. In terms of top level pro's, there are also people in their 40s, Katusha and Mirko for example. There are also plenty of pro athletes over 40 in different sports that continue being competitive, Bjorndalen in skiing for example.

But what do I know, I'm not even close to 40...

 

[singndance]

My pro tells me that even though I feel like I am regressing at times, I am actually building skills by taking risks that will take my dancing to a higher level. It is very frustrating to me, but he is quick to tell me to be patient with myself -- taking risks and trying to do familiar moves in an unfamiliar way will feel like taking steps backward. And it is, because I am not as good doing things the new way! But it will come, he assures me. And he is pretty much right on the money. This could be why you feel the way you do.

On the other hand, being 60+ (I hate to admit that, but it's true), my body definitely gets tired and sore a lot faster than it did even 5 years ago. To compensate, I don't practice as long or as intensely as I did, and I don't do much of anything else that is physical on dance days.

 

[Partner Dancer]

It's like a lot of other things in the body - if you don't use it, it'll slowly deteriorate.

The use it or lose it paradigm assumes one knows/understands
how to use it properly in the first place. Doing something poorly
doesn't help slow the deterioration.

One major limitation lots of dancers have is in their (continuity of,
as well as extent of) range of motion. Within this arena is the
inability to shift weight over the standing "inside" leg/hip such
that the upper body weight is not "between" (but "outside") the
two legs/hips. The general notion of this is lean/sway, but the
dynamic nature of the movement is a lot more involved (than
say in Yoga or Tai-chi).

The above is akin to skiing using snow-plowing rather than
"parallel" technique (many ski instructors don't believe beginners
should ever be taught snow-plowing, since it often builds bad
habits that are difficult to erase). One often learns to "lean"
better doing other dynamic activities such as skiing, roller
skating/blading/boarding, cycling, etc., than in doing partner
dancing (especially with limited practice, as in a hour a week
doing pro-am).

As one ages, one's limited ability to achieve range only exacerbates
because of the inherent aging process. IOW, if one didn't develop
the skills to "lean" well while younger, one is apt to fear leaning
when older.

There are many other well-known age-related issues...

https://www.audicus.com/understanding-high-frequency-hearing-loss/

http://www.aoa.org/patients-and-pub...-age/adult-vision-41-to-60-years-of-age?sso=y

I know plenty of older folks who dance regularly who have only continued improving in their dancing and have a better spatial awareness and body control than when they started. It's a lot of them are social dancers but a lot do also compete in the Senior categories. In terms of top level pro's, there are also people in their 40s, Katusha and Mirko for example. There are also plenty of pro athletes over 40 in different sports that continue being competitive, Bjorndalen in skiing for example.

The examples you offer are exceptions rather than the norm. Note
that they all started doing the activities decades before their 40s,
which means they "knew" what proper training entails. Even then,
age will eventually catch up, overshadowing the experience they've
compiled and the confidence they have. If it were true that age is
not a major issue, then why does Ballroom have age categories?
Pit the 70 yo's against the 20 yo's, especially in Latin/Rhythm.

It's interesting that 35 is the age for Seniors in Ballroom. All washed
up already. Most of the world considers seniors to be 65+, and
perhaps 55+. In Ballroom, 45 should be the new 35 for Seniors.

But what do I know, I'm not even close to 40...

Probably too young to have compiled enough observation or
personal experience. Dance a few decades with the same
people and perhaps you'll be more keen about the deterioration
that is pretty much inevitable.

 

[bia]

Dance a few decades with the same
people and perhaps you'll be more keen about the deterioration
that is pretty much inevitable.

Interesting how the two aspects of this original question combine, both in discussion in this thread and in each of our dance lives: getting older while building skill. As far as application to my own dance development, I see the facts of what happens on average to aging bodies as a reminder to respect and take care of mine. But terms like "deterioration"... in the potential for ultimate achievement, sure: the best 30-year-old will always be better than the best 60-year-old, given an equivalent amount of quality training over, say, the previous 20 years. So it's important not to have unrealistic expectations. But from my perspective in my mid-40s, I'm not comparing my dancing to my might-have-been dancing if I had started earlier and taken it seriously sooner. I'm comparing my dancing today to my dancing last year and my hoped-for dancing next year to my dancing today. I know for a fact that I can still improve my strength and fitness and dance skill from where they are now. And I look at the top competing dancers in their 60s, plenty of whom started as empty-nesters, and see where I realistically can be if I keep working at it.

 

[IngaSv]

The use it or lose it paradigm assumes one knows/understands
how to use it properly in the first place. Doing something poorly
doesn't help slow the deterioration.

One major limitation lots of dancers have is in their (continuity of,
as well as extent of) range of motion. Within this arena is the
inability to shift weight over the standing "inside" leg/hip such
that the upper body weight is not "between" (but "outside") the
two legs/hips. The general notion of this is lean/sway, but the
dynamic nature of the movement is a lot more involved (than
say in Yoga or Tai-chi).

The above is akin to skiing using snow-plowing rather than
"parallel" technique (many ski instructors don't believe beginners
should ever be taught snow-plowing, since it often builds bad
habits that are difficult to erase). One often learns to "lean"
better doing other dynamic activities such as skiing, roller
skating/blading/boarding, cycling, etc., than in doing partner
dancing (especially with limited practice, as in a hour a week
doing pro-am).

As one ages, one's limited ability to achieve range only exacerbates
because of the inherent aging process. IOW, if one didn't develop
the skills to "lean" well while younger, one is apt to fear leaning
when older.

There are many other well-known age-related issues...

https://www.audicus.com/understanding-high-frequency-hearing-loss/

http://www.aoa.org/patients-and-pub...-age/adult-vision-41-to-60-years-of-age?sso=y




The examples you offer are exceptions rather than the norm. Note
that they all started doing the activities decades before their 40s,
which means they "knew" what proper training entails. Even then,
age will eventually catch up, overshadowing the experience they've
compiled and the confidence they have. If it were true that age is
not a major issue, then why does Ballroom have age categories?
Pit the 70 yo's against the 20 yo's, especially in Latin/Rhythm.

It's interesting that 35 is the age for Seniors in Ballroom. All washed
up already. Most of the world considers seniors to be 65+, and
perhaps 55+. In Ballroom, 45 should be the new 35 for Seniors.



Probably too young to have compiled enough observation or
personal experience. Dance a few decades with the same
people and perhaps you'll be more keen about the deterioration
that is pretty much inevitable.

My post was quoted but this response seems to refer to a perspective that I was not presenting. I wasn't claiming to be an expert on aging. Of course I understand that people age and their physical ability deteriorates. Just because I'm not "older" myself doesn't mean I don't know "older" people who have shared their experiences with me.

Yes, in the statement that "if you don't use it, it deteriorates" I assumed that people use their body correctly, as opposed to just "use it up" via exertion or incorrect technique. Whether or not that applies to the OP is not my call to make.

All I was trying to do is offer some encouraging words to the OP, and perhaps raise some examples that were overlooked by the article that was provided. I never claimed they were the norm.

I am well aware of the existence of categories for competitions and I never suggested that age plays no part in the physical ability of dancers.

 

[IngaSv]

...I know for a fact that I can still improve my strength and fitness and dance skill from where they are now. And I look at the top competing dancers in their 60s, plenty of whom started as empty-nesters, and see where I realistically can be if I keep working at it.

This is kind of the point I was trying to make, except clearly I did not express it well.

 

[Partner Dancer]

My post was quoted but this response seems to refer to a perspective that I was not presenting. I wasn't claiming to be an expert on aging. Of course I understand that people age and their physical ability deteriorates. Just because I'm not "older" myself doesn't mean I don't know "older" people who have shared their experiences with me.

Yes, in the statement that "if you don't use it, it deteriorates" I assumed that people use their body correctly, as opposed to just "use it up" via exertion or incorrect technique. Whether or not that applies to the OP is not my call to make.

All I was trying to do is offer some encouraging words to the OP, and perhaps raise some examples that were overlooked by the article that was provided. I never claimed they were the norm.

I am well aware of the existence of categories for competitions and I never suggested that age plays no part in the physical ability of dancers.

These forum discussions are really just academic exchanges of ideas.
Quoting something is just an easy means of extending a discussion,
regardless of whether the added perspective is for or against the article
quoted. Note that it's the article/idea quoted, not the person quoted,
so there's no "attack" intended nor "defense" needed. Different
readers will see/gain different insights from the various articles,
depending on their background, experiences, and capabilities.

I've taken countless private/group lessons in my days, in all kinds of
genres of dance, but I can't recall any lesson that even bordered on the
issue of aging (probably so nobody gets offended). Most of the dancers
who started in the same time-frame as I decades ago have long left
the scene, and the ones that remain dance mostly "worse" than they did
a decade ago, primarily because they never grasped the fundamentals
(and the aging issues kicked in). Most of the instructors that started in
that time-frame now move as if their bodies are all beat up (partially
because pro-am is quite straining on the pros).

Dance is one of several awesome ways to "delay" the aging process,
if care is taken in dancing well/correctly. Unfortunately, I don't see
that to be the case. The concentration on pizzazz instead of finesse
and "sport" instead of "artistic/emotional/etc. endeavor" detracts
from doing the basics well. There are plenty of dancers who have
been at it for 10+ years who can't cleanly do a maneuver, such as
a cross-over/New-Yorker, well. I'm not much of a fan of the way
(Ballroom/partner) dance is taught, mostly because it's an autocratic
system, where students often/usually don't do much thinking and
self-analysis. Partner dance is often/generally more of a cerebral
exercise than a physical one, and a great platform for
self-improvement/self-reflection.

There are many different ways to "encourage" people. There is a fine
line between false and realistic expectations/accolades. I tend to believe
that understanding some of the real issues will help people more in
the long run, because they can then make better choices for themselves.
If someone is having balance problems, is it more "useful" to examine
the likely causes, or just suggest that he/she keep trying (usually
just doing the same old thing, poorly [possibly because the instruction
has been poor])?