Returning to Box Step in American Rumba

[Partner Dancer]

1. I have studied their videos before, and I like much of their choreography. If they were in town I would try them sure. They are one of my favorites of recent years.

2. I think they are 9+ in all areas.

I must note this video is designed for competitors more than for social dancers, and more International than American.

This is my assessment:

The dancing is generally OK, but has too much muscling for my taste
(unfortunately, that's what competition for faster/slicker gets).
The dancers have decent balance, but it's the kind that only
happens at the endpoints of movement (as the dancers snap from
position to position).

The single most useful truth of wisdom I was ever given, which came
in a coaching lesson from a Blackpool finalist years ago, was:

"Feel the force, don't force the feel."

These dancers are forcing the feel with overpowering, but that's
the norm in competitive dancing, especially with the recent
push for dancing as a "sport" rather than an "athletic activity."

Say a "step" (such as a spot turn [Walk-about turn]) takes 0.5
second to execute, the casual/so-so skilled dancer will not align
the body appropriately/sufficiently (in a consistent manner)
and so may wobble or take more or less than 0.5 second. A (truly)
skilled dancer will know how to align/time the body correctly and
execute it cleanly, say with a proportionate power/drift/brake
breakdown of 25%/50%/25%. The "athlete" dancer will do 40%/20%/40%,
to be flashy and execute for "effect." In order to be stable
and still have overpowering, the dancer would have to mis-align
the body or take a detoured path.

An example of the mis-alignment is in the New Yorker at 0:32,
where the body is over-extending (breaking body alignment). An
example of a detoured path is in the Spot Turn at 1:14. BTW,
I've been there, done that.

In addition to the body movement, I'm not a fan of the flopping
arms (Salsa dancers do this a lot). I subscribe to proportionate
movement, where arms have purpose and are extensions of the body
(specifically the back), because they contribute to balance.
There are just too many places where the arms are all over the
place (and not used for low-effort movement, as in Ballet, etc.).

If one were driving on a highway (with moderate to slightly-heavy
traffic) and saw two cars that were weaving through to get ahead,
would the car that constantly accelerated and braked or
the car that fluidly followed traffic speeding/slowing only
when appropriate have the better driver?

Of all the (athletic) activities I know, only competitive dance
deems excess movement to be "good." Skiers who overpower fall
flat on their faces very quickly. True Martial artists (not the
cinematic ones that do flying kicks aimlessly into the air) don't
do any gratuitous movement, because it's tiring and makes one
vulnerable. For me, the beauty of dance is in the ease, smoothness,
delibrateness, balance, etc., not the concocted/artificial powering.

A substantial part of my understanding of acceleration/deceleration
came from doing WCS and not from IS or AS Ballroom (although all of
the "body" stuff like alignment, isolation, body part articulation,
balance, timing, etc. came from Ballroom). Even when I was doing
Latin somewhat seriously, things didn't feel right as oftentimes the
acceleration/deceleration (powering/braking) made no sense, as
one wasn't going anywhere (in such things as Basic figures).
Why should one take detours when the easy, direct way, was much more
stable, comfortable, and timely? I'm much more into figuring out
and using the "natural" forces in movement, especially in use of
body weight placement to accomplish things. The overpowering and
devotion to speed actually detracts from being able to comprehend
what comes "naturally."

So, I Would not bother taking lessons from him/her, partially because
I've already been taught these things and don't find them appealing.
I'm pretty sure I _can_ dance that way (now that I'm much more skilled
than years ago) at least for a few songs till the strain takes its
toll, but muscling is not my thing.

With the protracted explanation above, I'd score the video performance:

Flair: 9
Substance: 7
Movement: 7
Connection: 5
Lead-Follow: 6
Comfort: 6

I don't think good fundamentals are different for any dancers,
whether competitive or social (or usually mixed).

In partner dancing, my major goals/interests are effotlessness and
smoothness (continuous/continum of actions/movements), which are
results of balance (including range of motion) and timing.

I don't think good fundamentals are different for any dancers,
whether competitive or social (or usually mixed).

I score connection and lead-follow low with overpowered/planned
dancing because fundamentally when movements are sharpened/quickened,
reaction time is eliminated and the "choregraphy" factor (partnering
by convention rather than physics) dominates, because the connection
can no longer be consistent/proportional with the body movements.
In the Hockey Stick Variation at 0:25, there is no rhyme and reason
why the follower continues to travel forward when the led arm goes
to the shoulder (or why she should even relax the arm). In normal
Hockey Stick, the led arm is kept above the head, so the leader
directs where the follower travels and when she turns. Not good
lead/follow.

AS Rumba Box technique discussion next, with the above setting a
background.

 

[DanceMentor]

I think this couple are very well suited for each other, and can easily do all the steps from bronze through open gold with pure lead and follow no problem. I can see an overturned New Yorker, but the spot turn alignments look good to me. Obviously this couple likes to play with existing ideas and provide their own interpretation that one would expect from a "phD" type dancer.

There can be a natural progression:
1. You can dance for fun
2. You dance in addition for the enjoyment of others
3. Others learn by what you demonstrate

Just as I don't have a problem with someone doing something really fun, but somewhat badly, I don't have a problem with more advanced dancers creating their own interpretation that will be judged by many more people.

I'm more just interested in my initial question about returning to the box step in a social situation and what people think about how it should be approached so that average dancers can work together even if from different studios.

 

[Partner Dancer]

I can see an overturned New Yorker, but the spot turn alignments look good to me. Obviously this couple likes to play with existing ideas and provide their own interpretation that one would expect from a "phD" type dancer.

It's clear you don't understand what I mean by taking a detour in the Spot Turn.
There's something extremely fundamental (to good movement) that these
dancers, and a large proportion of dancers (including instructors/coaches) don't
"know" or are not clear about.

But, before we even go into specifics, how do _you_ define "technique?" Lots
of dancers claim to be learning/doing technique and regurgitate that technique
is more important than steps/patterns, but do they _really_ know what that
means? IOW, would you be able to distinguish the difference between great/
good technique verses mediocre/poor/bad technique? What does good
technique do for a dancer? Would you recognize good technique when it's
staring you in the face, or would you cling on to the "inferior" technique
you're used to do (because all the dancers in your circle do things that way)?

One can always excuse poor technique, or absence of good technique, by
claiming to be just fooling around.

I don't have a problem with more advanced dancers creating their own interpretation that will be judged by many more people.

I make a distinction between "skilled" dancers verses "advanced" dancers,
the latter often not particularly skilled. A skilled dancer recognizes that
hyper-extension is a bad thing (for one thing, leaves body highly
vulnerable to injury), and the over-stretched New Yorker that breaks
body line/alignment borders on it.

I'm more just interested in my initial question about returning to the box step in a social situation and what people think about how it should be approached so that average dancers can work together even if from different studios.

There is a method to my madness. Unless you have been primed to
realize the nuances of good verses bad technique, any discussion of
the nuances of the AS Rumba Box Step would be moot. This issue
is actually highly related to the issues brought up in the Cha example.

 

[DanceMentor]

It would be an interesting thread by itself to ask the question: what is technique?

In my opinion, technique might be defined as one's understanding of the body, movement and partnership. Over a period of time people study technique and develop their own personal approaches. Initially they may simply follow the instructions of their teachers or try to emulate what they see. Later they start to develop a style that is more unique that is a result of years of trial and error and refinement.

In my opinion, you have made some judgements about the couple in the video for which not all would agree with you. There are some amazing things one can do with their body without harming it. I've been dancing for a long time and I have never had a serious injury. Compared with other sports, and dancing is actually pretty safe I'm sure I've done a few crazy things like them and even consistently and I'm doing okay.

Again, with the above couple they have been dancing the other for a long time and they develop their own methods. Some people will like what they do and try to emulate it. Others will take a different direction. This is the nature of dancing.

From dancing basics in your own way to dancing open gold figures, many personal choices can be involved. And then there are methods that couples choose because of their practicality, originality, show worthiness, and so much more. That is one of the amazing things about dancing. We can all choose what we want it to be. Sure, there are some politics but in the end we can still choose.

I'm still just asking about the room I boxed up and how to get back to it

 

[Partner Dancer]

It would be an interesting thread by
itself to ask the question: what is technique?

Tons of possible answers:

What I feel is most comfortable/easy.
What I feel burns the most calories.
What I think is most athletic.
What I think is most sedate.
What is the latest fad.
What I feel would win competitions (make judges vote for me).
Whatever my instructor says.
Whatever the last coach/judge said.
Whatever my dance partner wants.
Whatever I picked up at the last social dance, since I don't take lessons.
Whatever the clown partner insisted on teaching me at the last social dance.
Whatever I saw others doing at socials/competitions/shows.
What my crowd considers correct/good.
Whatever allows me to dance well with others.
Whatever I enforce on my dance partner.
What I feel is most regimented.
What I feel is most free.
What I feel is most sexy/romantic/alluring.
What suits my personality best.
What hides my personality best.
and so on.

In my opinion, technique might be defined as one's understanding of the body,
movement and partnership. Over a period of time people study technique and
develop their own personal approaches. Initially they may simply follow the
instructions of their teachers or try to emulate what they see. Later they
start to develop a style that is more unique that is a result of years of
trial and error and refinement.

Do you think pro-am dancing offers the path to this progression, or to
what degree does it?

Do you think the typical teaching mechanisms/methods in the US facilitates
learning in this way?

Do you think most students even care to figure out these things, or just
want to "shutup and dance?"

In my opinion, you have made some judgements about the couple in the video for
which not all would agree with you.

Never expected others to agree. That's obvious, otherwise I wouldn't
be against the grain of what the "dancesport" world accepts as "good."

I think I made it very clear from the onset that everything I write is my
opinion, suited to my goals. No point in prefixing every sentence with
"I believe," "I think," "IMHO," or suffixing everything with "YMMV."

Technical discussions on non-measurable matters are like discussions on
politics and religion... usually best avoided to appease egos.

There are some amazing things one can do with their body without harming it.
I've been dancing for a long time and I have never had a serious injury.
Compared with other sports, and dancing is actually pretty safe
I'm sure I've done a few crazy things like them and even consistently and I'm
doing okay.

Good, then when I get into the nuances of body movement, such as
body isolations and foot articulation, you will have no problem
trying things out. A lot of dancers who have been dancing for decades
still move like "lumps," having little body awareness.

In the days when I "competed" (or danced in the "competitive" manner),
I'd get minor injuries (nothing major, but small soft tissue tears, etc.)
every 3 months or so. Some fellow dancers fared worse, having chronic
issues. Even then, I knew a lot of the injuries were due to bad technique,
such as misaligned weight, hyper-extension, poor balance, etc..

I now do far more wild/crazy dance things than I did years ago, but never
get hurt because I have far better body awareness and apply useful
techniques consistently. Some of it is due to transference of skills
from other (more "dangerous") activities I do. One thing I don't do
is disporportinate powering/braking.

I don't consider dance a sport, but just an (artistic, athletic) activity.
It's simply too subjective, compared to sports that have measurable goals
like time to the finish line. For me, the better dancing is how _little_
effort/energy one uses to get movement achieved.

Again, with the above couple they have been dancing the other for a long time
and they develop their own methods. Some people will like what they do and
try to emulate it. Others will take a different direction. This is the nature
of dancing. From dancing basics in your own way to dancing open gold figures,
many personal choices can be involved. And then there are methods that
couples choose because of their practicality, originality, show worthiness,
and so much more. That is one of the amazing things about dancing. We can all
choose what we want it to be. Sure, there are some politics but in the end we
can still choose.

Nothing in the video of the _Basic_ Cha is unique, as lots of dancers have
been doing the same for decades. Of course, this video is just a snapshot
of their abilities/preferences, and I have no idea of what they can/do do
in general (given I've never seen them before). I do get the idea that
they are more into flash than simple solid technique, which unfortunately
most pros have to do to stand out (especially in this day and age).

I'm still just asking about the room I boxed up and how to get back to it

Hmm, must be flakey voice recognition or bad autocorrection. "Room I boxed up"
rather than "Rumba Box step."

Bare with me, as this stuff will all tie in at some point.

Technique takes time. I would even say that disjoint techniques (e.g., body
alignment separate from foot/ankle articulation) causes as much problem as
poor techniques.

 

[Partner Dancer]

It's clear you don't understand what I mean by taking a detour in the Spot Turn.
There's something extremely fundamental (to good movement) that these
dancers, and a large proportion of dancers (including instructors/coaches) don't
"know" or are not clear about.

OK. Let's get down to business.

Simple exercise...

Stand with feet shoulder-width apart, evenly weighted. Move weight onto
left foot, onto ball (raise heel). Do a 360 degree (single) spin to the left.
Essentially a Jazz (or Ballet) Pirouette with heel closer to the ground and right
leg position (usually front front or side passe) and arm position (and
foot position) unspecified.

Question: Which is your active side, the left or right?

 

[Partner Dancer]

Since you are so eager to start discussing the AS Rumba Box, analyze
the following instruction video in as much detail as you can. It's the
first one that popped up in my Google search.


Your issue with the closing from 5th position back to the Box is
related to general Rumba technique.

We will view other videos as we progress. It's going to get detailed.

I will also want to continue to discuss the IS Cha Spot Turn, as lots
of movement issues are common (technique is technique...).

 

[Partner Dancer]

How do you define the essence of an IS Spot Turn (AS Walk-about Turn)?

I want to make sure whatever technique I discuss in reference to it is
consistent with your definition of the figure.

From the simplest terms, a Spot Turn is a 1/4 turn to one side (left or
right) and a return to original facing (3/4 turn), without any overall
travel. Do you concur?

 

[tangotime]

Since you are so eager to start discussing the AS Rumba Box, analyze
the following instruction video in as much detail as you can. It's the
first one that popped up in my Google search.


Your issue with the closing from 5th position back to the Box is
related to general Rumba technique.

We will view other videos as we progress. It's going to get detailed.

I will also want to continue to discuss the IS Cha Spot Turn, as lots
of movement issues are common (technique is technique...).

There is an attempted"brush" action during the transition from the forward to side movements. This needs to be diagaonally shaped .

In addition, I'm not a lover of the left side hand/arm position and teach a Cuban hold.

The dance we call Rumba ( square style ) is an adaption from Danzon

 

[Partner Dancer]

The dance we call Rumba ( square style ) is an adaption from Danzon

Oh, to add to the list of definitions of "technique..."

Simulate what the ancients did.
Do what the "authentic" natives do.


It's safe to say that Ballroom Rhythm/Latin dances are substantially different
(adapted) from the dances that inspired them. Otherwise, Samba would
look like:


There are some tinges of similarity to Ballroom in some moves/movements,
but the differences dominate.

 

[tangotime]

It's safe to say that Ballroom Rhythm/Latin dances are substantially different
,
.

That's overstating the obvious... I spent multi years learning/dancing the " English " style of latin,with the giants of the industry, until I discovered the roots of the genre, which changed my perception permanently (my I got my head out of the proverbial sand )

 

[Mr 4 styles]

Perception is one thing.

Application within established context is another

 

[Mr 4 styles]

One if the nice things about fifth position break to forward step in the rumba box is it is great test of leading skill. When social dancing with a very new follow,or even one who has never danced before , you know your lead is on point when you Can effortlessly get them to follow this .

 

[tangotime]

Perception is one thing.

Application within established context is another

Which I have managed to do ( according to the latinos over the years, I have danced with ) .
I now teach those concepts in latin .

 

[Mr 4 styles]

I eagerly await your Latin technique book.


I love to read

And most Latinos don't dance Latin