Returning to Box Step in American Rumba

[DanceMentor]

As I read through your response about the cha cha video, I get the impression you are saying you've done what they've done and you now know better. You know what over extension is and you can see that they are doing it. And then through the knowledge you have obtained over the years you now know better about what is good dancing.

Now this couple I believe I could easily freestyle just fine. I think you could put on a song that isn't even what they normally dance and they would dance very well. I can see their connections are very good when they use them and they also have excellent visual lead and follow as well.

They may not represent what you would desire in your own dancing, but I have respect for what they are showing us. And as I look at some of their techniques how much even the spot turn, they are doing some things very well but I have work too hard myself to be able to do.

Having excellent body lines, and posture, and the complexity of all the moving parts, quick turns, and more... they have specific goals to show these qualities to judges and spectators. That does not mean their partnership is lacking. They have been groomed and coached from a young age.

Aso we have seen in other threads here, sufficient money is involved in producing such a couple. And at this time in history, what they produce is what, often wealthy, dance consumers want to "consume". I could judge that but I am somewhat stuck in my window as an observer of history.

 

[Partner Dancer]

As I read through your response about the cha cha video, I get the impression you are saying you've done what they've done and you now know better. You know what over extension is and you can see that they are doing it. And then through the knowledge you have obtained over the years you now know better about what is good dancing.

As strongly proclaimed in the preface... FOR ME, and perhaps for those who have same/similar
goals as I. We listed countless lists of what constitute technique, and it should be obvious
that there are lots of different interpretations, which align with the various goals of those
interpreters.

Again, discussions about technique is like discussions about religion or politics, where a
position of preference by one person/school often implies, or seems to imply, superiority
over some other (inferior) position. Unfortunately, that's going to happen, as otherwise
there won't be any useful exchange of information. People kill each other over different
interpretation of the same bible.

Hopefully that won't happen here, as I'm just stating opinion. A lot of the thinking
I subscribe to came from others (some great coaching), so I'm not on some ego trip.

You started the thread asking about some Rumba Box movement, and I asked if you'd
like the quick answer or the long one. While a quick answer may fix your immediate
difficulty, I believe only the long one would really help with a cure. But again, this is
IMHO (as stated in the preface). I'm not an instructor and have absolutely no stake
in proselytizing, ego-wise or financial. I just love figuring out how one can move.

Now this couple I believe I could easily freestyle just fine. I think you could put on a song that isn't even what they normally dance and they would dance very well. I can see their connections are very good when they use them and they also have excellent visual lead and follow as well.

There are plenty of great freestylers who "outdance" many/most Ballroom/partner/etc. dancers...
just look up Youtube or watch SYTYCD. So, I'm not sure what you're getting at.

When we talk about nuances of dancing, little things like "their connections are very good
when they use them" works for you (perhaps just as an observer), but my preference
(and again, this is _my_ preference) is that in partner dancing, the connection should
be consistent throughout (instead of only "when they use it").

There are certainly lots of reasons why dancers would prioritize connection lower than
other technical aspects, including doing fancy moves that can only be done through
choreography (and most/all the partnered dancing [as opposed to partner dancing]
on SYTYCD works that way), so it's often a matter of taste.

They may not represent what you would desire in your own dancing, but I have respect for what they are showing us. And as I look at some of their techniques how much even the spot turn, they are doing some things very well but I have work too hard myself to be able to do.

Have you considered that there are other ways of doing things? Try the exercise
I suggested.

If the discourse I'm trying to get you into is not consistent with the way you learn
or think, then we can just drop the long answer.

Having excellent body lines, and posture, and the complexity of all the moving parts, quick turns, and more... they have specific goals to show these qualities to judges and spectators. That does not mean their partnership is lacking. They have been groomed and coached from a young age.

Aso we have seen in other threads here, sufficient money is involved in producing such a couple. And at this time in history, what they produce is what, often wealthy, dance consumers want to "consume". I could judge that but I am somewhat stuck in my window as an observer of history.

I didn't use the video to focus on the couple, since I've never seen them and
know nothing about them (or their dance history). I was much more interested
in the details of the movements (technique) used in the dancing.

And yes, people dance in different ways, partly because of personal
preference and partly because of how the "industry" directs them.
I'm sure you've watched Strictly Ballroom.

 

[Partner Dancer]

BTW, if you wonder why I bother trying to engage into some discourse
about personal preference, it's because one way I learn is "bounce idea
off others." Much like social dancing with different people to learn how
bodies/physics work.

Also, when one is forced to organize thoughts in writing, one finds
out all sorts of things one knows/knew or need to figure out.

 

[DanceMentor]

So in my opinion right now much of the spending on ballroom dancing is quite concentrated. As a result, I believe also the definition of what is good technique is very, very specific. The variety of steps and differences in how couples look on the floor are not as striking.

But yes I am also interested in the Rumba box step. If you are explaining to a beginner to intermediate level dancer how to transition back to the box step, how would you tell them to do that?

 

[twnkltoz]

But yes I am also interested in the Rumba box step. If you are explaining to a beginner to intermediate level dancer how to transition back to the box step, how would you tell them to do that?

Particularly, a student who will take a few lessons, then go social dancing and be content with a few patterns and enough technique to dance reasonably with a partner. Someone who doesn't want to invest the time, money, and energy required to master truly good technique.

 

[Partner Dancer]

So in my opinion right now much of the spending on ballroom dancing is quite concentrated. As a result, I believe also the definition of what is good technique is very, very specific. The variety of steps and differences in how couples look on the floor are not as striking.

But yes I am also interested in the Rumba box step. If you are explaining to a beginner to intermediate level dancer how to transition back to the box step, how would you tell them to do that?

Try the pirouette exercise and view the Rumba Box video. I need to know how
you assess things and what your capabilities are.

In the Ballroom world, it's taken for granted that the teaching method for beginner,
intermediate, advance, etc., dancers should be different. In other words, treat
different levels with kid gloves (also milks lots of $$$ out of the student). The poor
student is forced to learn and unlearn things over and over again. I don't subscribe
to that method (having gone through it confused as hell). My conversation with
the friend about mentoring further reinforces my belief. So, even if the student is
not physically/mentally able to do something at some point, they should be familiarized
with "what is good" right from the onset, by having the instructor show/explain
what the end goal is (unfortunately, most instructors can do "how" but are oblivious
to "why," which is the _most_ important thing). IOW, serious beginner student
should be taught by top instructors. Of course, most beginners haven't decided
how "serious" they want to go or how much time/effort/$$ they can afford.

As we discuss the Rumba Box video, interactively, the technique nuances will become
much more obvious. You may not agree with my preferences, and can very well
come out with your own, but it should help give you thought about what things the
body can/will do to achieve movement. Stuff that one won't learn in just doing
routines (and perhaps even in winning high-level competitions).

There is method to the madness.

 

[Partner Dancer]

Particularly, a student who will take a few lessons, then go social dancing and be content with a few patterns and enough technique to dance reasonably with a partner. Someone who doesn't want to invest the time, money, and energy required to master truly good technique.

This would be the quick answer, then.

Just yank the follower from the side of you to your front. Like the
reverse of what's done in the Cha video at 1:42.

The good thing is that in the Cha case, the follower may get a whiplash
and mini-concussion, but in this Rumba case, the follower would only
possibly hurt her knee.

BTW, this 5th break to close is similar to a Tango Promenade
Close, with a different texture. I have no idea why some think
it's like a Slip Pivot.

 

[DanceMentor]

I have no idea why some think
it's like a Slip Pivot.

Because rather that returning the weight to the RF, the man slips the RF back very similar to a slip pivot. And of course the lady may also slip her LF toward the man. The basic then begins with a sense of rotation to the left.

 

[DanceMentor]

An alternate return to the basic is a shoulder to shoulder started on man's RF
Rock, step, back (qqs)
The back step has about 1/8 rotation to the left followed by side together.

 

[DanceMentor]

An interesting method following a spot turn can be a couple of alternate basics commencing on man's LF
Together together side 2x
Side together forward.

 

[twnkltoz]

This would be the quick answer, then.

Just yank the follower from the side of you to your front. Like the
reverse of what's done in the Cha video at 1:42.

The good thing is that in the Cha case, the follower may get a whiplash
and mini-concussion, but in this Rumba case, the follower would only
possibly hurt her knee.

BTW, this 5th break to close is similar to a Tango Promenade
Close, with a different texture. I have no idea why some think
it's like a Slip Pivot.

This would be the quick answer, then.

Just yank the follower from the side of you to your front. Like the
reverse of what's done in the Cha video at 1:42.

The good thing is that in the Cha case, the follower may get a whiplash
and mini-concussion, but in this Rumba case, the follower would only
possibly hurt her knee.

BTW, this 5th break to close is similar to a Tango Promenade
Close, with a different texture. I have no idea why some think
it's like a Slip Pivot.

It's a wonder anyone survives a Saturday night dance.

 

[Dr Dance]

All of my followers would not appreciate being "yanked."

 

[tangotime]

All of my followers would not appreciate being "yanked."

Hows about "englished ? " ....

 

[Partner Dancer]

Because rather that returning the weight to the RF, the man slips the RF back very similar to a slip pivot. And of course the lady may also slip her LF toward the man. The basic then begins with a sense of rotation to the left.

Wow. People don't know the difference between Closed Promenade (I prefer calling
it Promenade Close, as it's just going from a promenade position to a close hold
position) and Slip Pivot? The first has the right leg/hip going _forward_, the second
has the it going _backward_.

The return to Box in Rumba (or return to close in Cha, as in a cross-body lead, etc)
has the right side going _forward_. The body positions and momentum are all
screwed up having the right side going backward. Try doing a cross-body while the
follower is going forward and the leader is "pulling away" on his right side!

 

[Partner Dancer]

It's a wonder anyone survives a Saturday night dance.

That's what one gets without decent/good technique. The more I dance, the more I
cringe at all kinds of stuff leaders do to toss the followers around. And in most cases,
it's amazing how many followers enjoy it, especially if they are young (until the sore
sets in).