Returning to Box Step in American Rumba

[Partner Dancer]

Wow. People don't know the difference between Closed Promenade (I prefer calling
it Promenade Close, as it's just going from a promenade position to a close hold
position) and Slip Pivot? The first has the right leg/hip going _forward_, the second
has the it going _backward_.

The return to Box in Rumba (or return to close in Cha, as in a cross-body lead, etc)
has the right side going _forward_. The body positions and momentum are all
screwed up having the right side going backward. Try doing a cross-body while the
follower is going forward and the leader is "pulling away" on his right side!

Oh. It's called a 5th position _break_ because in a break, one reverses direction of
the feet (between the quick and quick [L,R]). Taking 2 steps back (on both quicks)
means not doing any _break_.

BTW, just to be clear, on a cross-body, the feet are "reversed" (break
happens R,L rather than L,R), but the feel of the travel/rotation is
substantially the same.

 

[DanceMentor]

Oh. It's called a 5th position _break_ because in a break, one reverses direction of
the feet (between the quick and quick [L,R]). Taking 2 steps back (on both quicks)
means not doing any _break_.

Right but a common method to end a series of 5th position breaks, and taught by Dance Vision and others.

 

[Mr 4 styles]

You are making this way harder than it is

It's a break because the partners centers move away almost hinge open around a common axis

It's fifth position coz that's the ballet term for your foot position

You could also use a 2-5 break. You do second position cucaracha while she does fifth position and it's still a break as you move your centers away

 

[Partner Dancer]

Right but a common method to end a series of 5th position breaks, and taught by Dance Vision and others.

What does the (particular) ending of a figure have to do with the figure itself? It's like saying the
prep into a Natural Turn is the Natural Turn.

The (simple) definition of a break is pretty much universal (in partner dancing). Salsa on 1 means
Salsa with break step on count 1 of the music. Salsa on 2 means Salsa with break step on
count 2 of the music. And (Ballroom) Mambo is break on 2. The existence of a partner is irrelevant,
since the break action is in respect to one's own body.

Don't know if Dance Vision is teaching something "wrong" or viewers are interpreting something
that is correct "incorrectly." I doubt an instructor certification exam, ala Arthur Murray or
Fred Astaire, would allow the testee to claim two steps in the same direction to be a _break_,
where there is a break in direction (or a "brake" and return).

 

[DanceMentor]

What does the (particular) ending of a figure have to do with the figure itself? It's like saying the
prep into a Natural Turn is the Natural Turn.

The (simple) definition of a break is pretty much universal (in partner dancing). Salsa on 1 means
Salsa with break step on count 1 of the music. Salsa on 2 means Salsa with break step on
count 2 of the music. And (Ballroom) Mambo is break on 2. The existence of a partner is irrelevant,
since the break action is in respect to one's own body.

Don't know if Dance Vision is teaching something "wrong" or viewers are interpreting something
that is correct "incorrectly." I doubt an instructor certification exam, ala Arthur Murray or
Fred Astaire, would allow the testee to claim two steps in the same direction to be a _break_,
where there is a break in direction (or a "brake" and return).

I believe dance vision does refer to it as an "alternate ending" to 5th position breaks. In the classes I have seen, that is also how I hear it commonly referred. And then sometimes they expound and discuss how it can be used as a single action (not part of a series of breaks).

 

[tangotime]

I doubt an instructor certification exam, ala Arthur Murray or
Fred Astaire, would allow the testee to claim two steps in the same direction to be a _break_,
where there is a break in direction (or a "brake" and return).

let me put your doubts away.. AM and FA ( used to, probably still do ) teach break steps, fwd, and back with BOTH L and R foot ( plus side breaks ), that's their name , and that is what they are called..
Part of the reasoning , as an educated guess, would be that, Cuban Son uses double back breaks in it's basic format .

 

[DanceMentor]

let me put your doubts away.. AM and FA ( used to, probably still do ) teach break steps, fwd, and back with BOTH L and R foot ( plus side breaks ), that's their name , and that is what they are called..
Part of the reasoning , as an educated guess, would be that, Cuban Son uses double back breaks in it's basic format .

I think partner dance is referring to replacing the weight like a rock vs a slip acton which is sort of two steps back.

Tangotime, besides American rumba where is there a box step with no rise and fall?

 

[tangotime]

I think partner dance is referring to replacing the weight like a rock vs a slip acton which is sort of two steps back.

Tangotime, besides American rumba where is there a box step with no rise and fall?

I guess I read it to believe ( from the way it was worded ) 2 consecutive back breaks with different feet. But, you are probably correct.


Intern. style F/trot..danced in an open square , a very old figure seldom seen. Mambo also has an Open box as does Bolero ( the same was applied to Intern. style rumba ).

I clearly remember from many moons ago, a very high profile adjudicator that, was on the same panel as myself, and, a well know prof dancer, when the question was raised by the Ajud. what was a box in FT ?.. we both answered simultaneously with a brief demo.

Many believe that a "Box " type construction, has to be a closed figure, when in truth ,it also may be open. It's the configuration that determines its name

 

[Partner Dancer]

I think partner dance is referring to replacing the weight like a rock vs a slip acton which is sort of two steps back.

Tangotime, besides American rumba where is there a box step with no rise and fall?

So, I was wondering why there would be so much controversy about
such a basic/"straight forward" thing (the exit from 5th position break).
I tried the "reverse slip povot" lead and realize that it works, but
it's really not an exit from 5th postion break any more.

In order to do the "slip pivot" thing, one has to terminate the 5th
position break with a Slow on the left foot, effectively making
the exit a rock steps in promenade. The RLR for the "slip pivot"
is another "joining" figure before the Box is reached. So, does
having two 4-count joining figures in between the starting and
target figures still constitute an exit-and-entrance? One could
dance an entire amalgamation (16-count, 32-count, etc.) to
connect the 5th position break and the Box.

The "closed promenade" way is the standard way studios
teach the break-to-Box because it is easy (and direct, going
straight from 5th postion break to the Box), if the proper
technique is at work.

That's why I suspect there are fundamental technique issues
that should be addressed.

 

[Partner Dancer]

The "closed promenade" way is the standard way studios
teach the break-to-Box because it is easy (and direct, going
straight from 5th postion break to the Box), if the proper
technique is at work.

In looking at your original post, this is exactly what you are
trying to do (better).

That's why I suspect there are fundamental technique issues
that should be addressed.

Which brings to my gripe about coaching lessons. Way back
when, I would have coaching lessons with the same person
(at same time as regular instructor) periodically every few
months. While the first couple of lessons were usuallly great,
addressing substantial technique issues of the existing movements
in the choreography, or improving fundamental issues with
poise, body tone, etc., invariably additional lessons deterioted
into changing the choreograpy to use more "fancy" stuff,
rather than improving/solving any existing problems (which I
knew existed because things just didn't feel right/easy). I came
to the realization that a lot of coaches are just not very good
at (good) technique, or the analysis of technical deficiencies,
and use choreography to cover up things. I've since figured out
most of these fundamental issues through years of experimentation
and picking up ideas from lots of group lessons in all sorts of
dancing (many not Ballroom).

The flow of this thread reminds me of the detour around
technique, with variation of ending figures.

 

[Angel HI]

I'm sorry, but I feel that this discussion was taken way off track into areas (technique, style, partnering, etc) that are addendums to, not necessarily answers to, the original issue. These things deserve a thread of their own. The original question.....

So in American Rumba what do you feel are the easiest transitions back to the box step?

I do not teach by steps/patterns/syllabi. Yes, I have a syllabus, but it is more a system of body movements and possible precedes/follows, rather than a list of steps/patterns. Also, yes, many movements become steps/patterns by rote repetition, and we are ok with this. What we disagree with is 'defining' a dance by a step/pattern (i.e., a waltz is a box step, a fox is SSQQ, etc).

That being said, in reply to the OP's question, we teach Rumba by elements rather than by steps. In this manner, one could return to the 'box step' at whatever point/place in the dance that may be desired. One might use a 5e position break to return to either the beginning or ending half of the box pattern, or one might dance into the box from every forward, backward, or side step that is in phrase/rhythm. This opens a world of possibilities for blending traditional pattern, and for creativity.

 

[DanceMentor]

I guess I read it to believe ( from the way it was worded ) 2 consecutive back breaks with different feet. But, you are probably correct.


Intern. style F/trot..danced in an open square , a very old figure seldom seen. Mambo also has an Open box as does Bolero ( the same was applied to Intern. style rumba ).

I clearly remember from many moons ago, a very high profile adjudicator that, was on the same panel as myself, and, a well know prof dancer, when the question was raised by the Ajud. what was a box in FT ?.. we both answered simultaneously with a brief demo.

Many believe that a "Box " type construction, has to be a closed figure, when in truth ,it also may be open. It's the configuration that determines its name

Yes, that makes sense about the Open box. I was just trying to think of any other precedent where there was the closing of the feet in a box step in the absence of rise and fall. It seems this is somewhat unique to American rumba.

 

[Mr 4 styles]

Yes it is. Welcome to American rhythm

 

[tangotime]

Yes, that makes sense about the Open box. I was just trying to think of any other precedent where there was the closing of the feet in a box step in the absence of rise and fall. It seems this is somewhat unique to American rumba.

I do know WHY the dance studios promoted this concept.

The " studios ", made the claim that, one could "dance " 3 different dances in short order with the box.. Waltz, F/trot and Rumba. it was used as a selling tool, and was effective .

 

[Angel HI]

I was just trying to think of any other precedent where there was the closing of the feet in a box step in the absence of rise and fall. It seems this is somewhat unique to American rumba.

By dance definition, many refer to a "Half Box" as "forward side close", and the back half as a "4 5 6". Given this, the Half Natural in Quickstep (a Half Box - rotating to the right), does not have Rise/Lower before the succeeding back step with the L foot. Neither does the Half Box of the Progressive chasse (the side close) when preceding a Fishtail.