Rise and fall when walking?

Dave Bailey said:
I'm talking about rise and fall whilst walking traditional tango - more precisely, should there be any rise during the "collect" part of a walk or not?

Or does it not matter?

I still don't think I've heard a definite answer...


Yes, that's pretty much the way I understood it to work also.

To me, lowering is part of preparation, and whilst walking, you keep lowered - and don't bob up and down during collection. And when you stop walking, you return to "raised" position.

But is that just a stylistic preference or what?
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The tricky part of walking traditional tango is not the fall but the rise. You have a starting point which is the top of your head whilst standing in your starting position. Let’s call this the neutral position. As you dance walking or otherwise you can fall below that neutral position but you cannot rise above it. To rise above it is to bounce and like Peaches stated bouncing is a no no and for once we agree on something.
In ballroom the rise and fall is above and below that neutral position and that’s what separates us from them.
 
In Tango Salon you do everything as linear as possible, expect side step.

Classical rise and fall like in Ballroom is forbidden.
You walk like you walk usually, and rise a bit and falling is inevitable.
 
Dave Bailey said:
...but should there be any rise / fall during a walk, or should you be more or less constant?

I always assumed that it was the latter - i.e. that you should soften the knees whilst collecting, to minimize and up / down motions.

Am I right, wrong with that?
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AFAIK, in AT, the general rule is a smooth and as level as possible. Rise & fall will happen every now and then especially when trying to lead complicated figures/giros. Regardless, as smooth as possible.
 
Ampster said:
AFAIK, in AT, the general rule is a smooth and as level as possible. Rise & fall will happen every now and then especially when trying to lead complicated figures/giros. Regardless, as smooth as possible.
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I'm with Amps on this one... most teachers I have had emphatically stated that there is to be no up and down. If you are "up" when you are collected, it is because you either stepped onto a straight leg, or straightened it after you transferred your weight, neither of which you should be doing.

You straighten the knee when reaching/extending, but soften it as you transfer weight to it so that your supporting leg is not straight. And as a consequence, there is no need to go down to enable a reach for the next step unless you want it to be a "longer than natural" step.

People seem to often go down before leading a side step after being still. but IMHO, that is because of the tendency to stand with the knees straight. Often when I have had a couple get into a starting position to dance, I have had to tell them "ok... now soften your knees" before allowing them to begin anything. Most people don't naturally stand with their knees bent, and so they tend to straighten them whenever they come to a "stop" or "completion", even to the point of having their knees locked. Then they end up having to go down in order to do anything from there.

Whether or not that is incorrect or not is debatable, and some straightening at the end of a figure could I suppose be a stylistic thing. But since in simple walking, you would pass through the collected position on every step, I certainly wouldn't advocate as a general rule any kind of automatic "up" or straightening of the knees when "collecting".

In fact, I would caution that unless it is a deliberate thing for style or choreographic purposes to put a "period" on the previous set of steps, its best to AVOID straightening when collecting over the supporting leg. Most people don't seem to need to think about rising.. they need to think about NOT rising and straightening too much. They need to be thinking about staying soft in the knees.
 
Dave Bailey said:
I'm talking about rise and fall whilst walking traditional tango - more precisely, should there be any rise during the "collect" part of a walk or not?
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This is the post I was thinking of when I made my response agreeing with Ampster, and my answer would be "no".

That is, unless you are coming off a deep downward motion that was intentional for some reason, then you would have to 'rise' to restore the normal amount of 'down' (ie: soft bend)

Or if, as one poster pointed out, you are trying to indicate very short fast steps.. then a slight lifting feeling above the normal amount of soft bend seems common.

But in general for steady even walking, I would say "No rise in collect, especially if you are passing through collect"
 
Zoopsia59 said:
This is the post I was thinking of when I made my response agreeing with Ampster, and my answer would be "no".

That is, unless you are coming off a deep downward motion that was intentional for some reason, then you would have to 'rise' to restore the normal amount of 'down' (ie: soft bend)

Or if, as one poster pointed out, you are trying to indicate very short fast steps.. then a slight lifting feeling above the normal amount of soft bend seems common.

But in general for steady even walking, I would say "No rise in collect, especially if you are passing through collect"
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Sounds like we have a consensus.

I love it when a thread comes together...:)
 
Rise and Fall when Walking

Then, David, you're not going to like this spanner in the works!!!

First let's establish what rise and fall is. In ballroom waltz a fall is a bend of the straight standing leg as the man moves forward. The rise is lift onto the ball of the foot at the end of that first heel lead step of the box step and the rise is maintained through the side step and close until a lowering onto the heel for the next forward or back step. So the characteristic rise and fall of the body is seen and is felt and followed by the lady.

So is that what you meant by rise and fall?

None of this applies in tango and not in ballroom tango either. Though I see a leader locally who rises onto the ball of his foot and lowers but doesn't fall. Most of the time he's straight legged, little bending at the knee. The ladies apparently love dancing with him - gee I'm jealous.

I've been taught the lead for a collect is a lift, but it doesn't come from a rise but from a subtle lift of the chest and maybe gently from the embracing arm. A forward or side step has no falling, that is no bending of the knee, but is lead exclusively from the chest/torso.

However I see many people here dance with bent legs and even think it's taught as has been explained earlier and you'll see lots of that style on YouTube. And I've seen a neat graphic piece of teaching YouTube video too where a bend of the knee is used in preparation for a sidestep, which is a "fall" in ballroom, but without no rise on collect only a lift of the body resulting from a straightening of the legs.

I subscribe to the walk on these pages:

http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_6school/10walking1.htm

but there seem to be no rules about this. We all have to make our
own minds up and all the different advice becomes contradictory.
No-one seems to qualify what style (and that's another question)
they are dancing either. My personal belief is that the connection
comes from being firmly grounded and solidly connected to the floor on each step. Bent knees soften that connection and flexing hips reduce the connection too.

But I am dancing close hold, basically trying to make something of apilado, and many people do not. Nevertheless, even in open hold straight legs in Tango seem solidly best to me and lead from the chest or torso depending on the hold.

But it is only my opinion so now who will shoot me down?
 
dchester said:
I knew you guys could do it.

:cool:

Now for the next question, is it heel first or toe first?
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For me, it's neither.

The entire foot should solidly strike the floor
simultaneously with the straightening of the leg.

See this page again:
http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_6school/10walking1.htm

The explanation is very clear.

Again I'm sure there's lots of different opinion but this style
and method is my objective. For me it's partly what makes
the Tango connection work and along with the embrace
separates the dance from all the others. Most dances have their own way of using the body and this is Tango's.
 
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