Salsa Dancers Never Stoop

[alemana]

what it means for an int/advanced follower to accomodate a beginner leader is pretty easy to understand. i have to do this a lot:

1. tone it down.

2. don't go shine crazy.

3. turn up the normally-revving Protect the Holy Male Ego machine to a much higher setting to account for beginner leader insecurity.

4. turn off the "typical pattern" node in your brain. even though ideally the follower's job is to PURELY follow, the truth is, we do have expectations when various moves/combinations are initiated - "now it's going to be an inside turn for sure, let me prep." "the end of this combo is always a mambo jazz." beginners don't necessarily lead all that stuff, so the follower needs to adjust.

5. every once in a while, finish a move that would normally be led by a leader, but is half-of-mis-led by a beginner, by yourself.

example: if i didn't propel myself across the slot in a CBL as typically led by a beginner, i would NEVER make it across his body. most simply do not lead the CBL right (and the rest mostly push too hard.)

same with spins - usually i really have to get around by myself with beginners.


etc.

 

[africana]

3. turn up the normally-revving Protect the Holy Male Ego machine to a much higher setting to account for beginner leader insecurity.

muahahahaaaha!

thank you alemena

so true, I used to be so unaware of how intimidating some of my styling/footwork was until the last couple of years, i toned down (now I'm afraid I forgot them :? )...for that all important ego

 

[Ms_Sunlight]

5. every once in a while, finish a move that would normally be led by a leader, but is half-of-mis-led by a beginner, by yourself.

example: if i didn't propel myself across the slot in a CBL as typically led by a beginner, i would NEVER make it across his body. most simply do not lead the CBL right (and the rest mostly push too hard.)

How does one lead it right? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that.

When I went to a leading/following workshop a couple of months ago (which I feel I took a lot from) we were taught several ways to lead a CBL, including when dancing without touching, using posture and eye contact. But in any case it can be well led with a light touch, so you have to get across there yourself in any event.

 

[kdogg]

...we were taught several ways to lead a CBL, including when dancing without touching, using posture and eye contact.

You mean without touching the follower's shoulder in a closed position? This doesn't work with the beginners without giving her a more stronger pull (than you would with an advanced follower) with the hand you're leading her into CBL.

 

[kdogg]

what it means for an int/advanced follower to accomodate a beginner leader is pretty easy to understand. i have to do this a lot:

1. tone it down.

2. don't go shine crazy.

3. turn up the normally-revving Protect the Holy Male Ego machine to a much higher setting to account for beginner leader insecurity.

4. turn off the "typical pattern" node in your brain. even though ideally the follower's job is to PURELY follow, the truth is, we do have expectations when various moves/combinations are initiated - "now it's going to be an inside turn for sure, let me prep." "the end of this combo is always a mambo jazz." beginners don't necessarily lead all that stuff, so the follower needs to adjust.

5. every once in a while, finish a move that would normally be led by a leader, but is half-of-mis-led by a beginner, by yourself.

example: if i didn't propel myself across the slot in a CBL as typically led by a beginner, i would NEVER make it across his body. most simply do not lead the CBL right (and the rest mostly push too hard.)

same with spins - usually i really have to get around by myself with beginners.


etc.

Well, if he has an ego issue then that's something he needs to work on. I do agree with not overdoing the shines or even the basic foot-work. If I'm dancing with a beginner, I try to keep the foot-work simple (forward-backward) without adding taps and other fill-ups that you can play with the beat.

 

[alemana]

hah, actually, if i didn't accomodate by turning on the Ego Protector i'd never have a single dance. it's just part of dealing with ... you know. it's part of the job.

 

[alemana]

about the CBL:

true, it's my job to go, but beginner leaders often

1) don't get out of the way
2) don't know how to provide alternate signals (eye contact not being a beginner specialty)
3) lead it on the wrong beat, so i'm on the wrong foot
4) provide a conflicting lead, so i'm not sure if i should stay or go.

 

[tacad]

hah, actually, if i didn't accomodate by turning on the Ego Protector i'd never have a single dance. it's just part of dealing with ... you know. it's part of the job.

Interesting. I've decided it's my job to make sure the follower has a good time, because I enjoy it if she does and in the interest of getting dances. At this point this includes not screwing up the steps, keeping her safe, and letting her know that I'm into her. :wink: As far as getting dances goes I figure it comes down to this: If other women see my partners having a good time they'll want to dance with me.

 

[diputs]

hah, actually, if i didn't accomodate by turning on the Ego Protector i'd never have a single dance. it's just part of dealing with ... you know. it's part of the job.

I cannot believe I am about to defend someone. But how come it is not ok for a certain man on this message board to make a generalization about women, but it is ok for a woman to do so.

I apologize for all the men in the world for not being perfect. Luckily we have women to point that out to us constantly!

 

[Sagitta]

hah, actually, if i didn't accomodate by turning on the Ego Protector i'd never have a single dance. it's just part of dealing with ... you know. it's part of the job.

I cannot believe I am about to defend someone. But how come it is not ok for a certain man on this message board to make a generalization about women, but it is ok for a woman to do so.

I apologize for all the men in the world for not being perfect. Luckily we have women to point that out to us constantly!

:? Just like it is out in the real world. Black people use all sorts of words to describe themselves that they would be offended at if other people used to describe them in their presence. When one is within a group it is okay to use language that can be "offensive" or "derogatory" if used by outsiders.

 

[tacad]

The tone of a post matters a lot here. And this man's tone has settled down a bit so no one really minds too much now, I think.

 

[alemana]

well, it's one thing for a newbie to storm on and blather categorically and without evidence of thought or intellect, with the nakedly obvious intent to just stir up dispute and argument.

that's called trolling, one of the scourges of online communties. and it's not what i'm doing at all.

relax, take a deep breath - nothing that i'm saying is really that insulting. consider the context. i have stated over and over in multiple ways how incredibly accomodating i am to beginners. i try to bracket my commentary with humor and self-deprecation, which normally function as a signal that good will is behind the language (as opposed to the other character to which you refer.) further, the points i make about beginner leaders are pretty much accepted wisdom in my dance community, so i'm not sure what the hubub, is, bub. neither what i say nor how i say it compare in any way to the troll.

protecting the ego of your partner is NOT only the job of the follower - both parties do it. but to deny that it's part of the follower's little stack of responsibilities is kind of disingenous.

 

[diputs]

protecting the ego of your partner is NOT only the job of the follower - both parties do it. but to deny that it's part of the follower's little stack of responsibilities is kind of disingenous.

From your original comment, I got the impression that you thought this was one sided. Thank you for clarifying.

Just ignore me today, it is one of those days.

 

[Ms_Sunlight]

You mean without touching the follower's shoulder in a closed position? This doesn't work with the beginners without giving her a more stronger pull (than you would with an advanced follower) with the hand you're leading her into CBL.

I mean without touching at all. Anywhere. Just dancing face-to-face, using body language and eye contact. It's an interesting exercise and surprisingly easy. People are really good at picking up non-verbal signals from other people, better than I had realised.

But anyway, the thing that confused me was, you don't use the push to get across, it's just a cue, and not the only kind of cue you can use. In the context of dancing with an absolute beginner they're probably not going to be consciously using those kinds of techniques though, I appreciate that. Although if they're a club dancer, they may well use them unconsciously.

 

[Ms_Sunlight]

about the CBL:

true, it's my job to go, but beginner leaders often

1) don't get out of the way
2) don't know how to provide alternate signals (eye contact not being a beginner specialty)
3) lead it on the wrong beat, so i'm on the wrong foot
4) provide a conflicting lead, so i'm not sure if i should stay or go.

Ah, I get you!

On the subject of ego protection, sometimes I'm so tempted to walk through moves in those "I know what he was trying to do even though the lead was totally useless" moments for the sake of my ego because (as a beginner myself, if no longer an abject beginner) I get so sick of the disgusted looks that some guys give me when I don't demonstrate the ability to read their mind!