Some possibly confusing tango terms
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Yes, but the problem had to be solved by physical training so whether the initial problem was lack or fitness or not the solution remained the same.
How come then, that the degree of physical fitness correlates so closely with the degree of skill of the dancer? Why are there so few fat, unfit professional dancers? Having a trained, responsive body helps people to acquire the techniques that all of us, no matter how unambitious we are in our approach to dance, apparently value highly. Why else do we have these endless discussions about axis, walking, disassociation and other skills which we pretty much agree are the essential foundation of the dance?
The truth is, that if you have a trained, responsive body that you are fully aware of, and in control of, these basic skills are easier to acquire. Of course, as a purely social dancer, you might feel you don't have to bother with basic skills - but I somehow don't think that is the case?
One example -I dance with lots of men who frequently wobble and lose their axis because they don't have awareness of their core, which mars otherwise pleasant dances. I'm sure the same is true of followers. A bit of regular training outside the dancefloor would help to sort out that problem and make them better social dancers.
I've been thinking about why the old milongueros can get away with still being considered maestros despite age and lack of condition and I think superb connection with the music and its interpretation has to be a major factor. A highly accurate, confident and subtle lead is probably another - but perhaps we could hear a bit more from someone who has actually danced with one? As someone has already mentioned, I suspect that they are still very aware of how to use their core muscles, despite general lack of condition.
Cause even when we're sitting at our computers (and probably should be working) we can't stop thinking about Tango. Since we can't gossip about tango people, we have to talk about something!
Most of the leaders I dance with who wobble and lose their balance do so, not because of a lack of core conditioning, but because they have no idea how to rotate their upper body to walk outside partner (or to do anything else) and never got taught how to place their foot in relationship to the follower as they step.
It usually goes like this: The leader wants to step outside to my right, but was never told to rotate his upper body toward mine to help him get there without breaking the connection. So he tries to keep his chest in front of mine but tips it over sideways so that his hips are next to mine to allow him to step beside me. Then because he is tipping and falling and worrying about stepping on me (these are almost always the same leaders who are afraid to step on me, so they end up trying to step around me) he places his foot so that it points away from me into the center of the room, which brings his right hip forward, thus blocking his connection to me even more. That makes it almost impossible for him to rotate his upper body towards mine... in fact, it pulls his upper body the OTHER way, so he has to tip sideways (right shoulder down) even more to try to connect his torso to mine at all.
Eventually, he falls over.
None of that says anything at all about the strength of his core... (in fact, someone with a strong core can twist up like this even more before they eventually fall over) It's just bad technique (or complete lack of technique) If I correct the leader and get him to use his body correctly, he may turn out to be completely stable.
Putting your body in the wrong position because you don't know any better is not the same thing as not being ABLE to put/hold it in the correct position. I'd say that on a local level of hobbyists, the former is a bigger problem than the latter (at least here) One of the leaders who I have trouble connecting to for some reason is a martial artist... he's very strong but I always have trouble following him. A leader I like danced with a modern dance company... he's quite strong, but he sometimes gets nervous and the tension gives him stability problems (just like me, actually... I actually LOOK quite fit and have reasonably strong core muscles)
I just not buying into the idea that people's problems are typically coming from lack of strength. It hasn't been my experience of people I know, male or female, leader or follower, that lack of strength is their biggest obstacle.
Yep, and it's a shame that so many people are petty like that.
As I recall, there was quite a bit of flak about Cheryl Burke's weight too.
tangomonkey
Active Member
...reminded me of a ballet I saw on PBS a long time ago. The Dutch National Ballet company coreography to some Bach Brandenburg Concerto movements - in fat suits...
Some clips:
http://www.richardprins.com/2010/05/dutch-national-ballet-groosland/
Some clips:
http://www.richardprins.com/2010/05/dutch-national-ballet-groosland/
Dave Bailey
Active Member
I agree that fitness is a good thing - of course it is. I also have back pain issues, and I know the solution - or, at least, the thing which helps the most - is a combination of stretches, mobility, and fitness.
The correlation is less high for social dancers - skill is paramount. It's much higher, obviously, for performers.
First, professional (AKA performance) dancing is a different animal from social dancing. Second, I think the answer to your question has to do with what the customer (and the organizers) wants. Part of what they are marketing is an image, and fat people don't often fit into that image.
OK, so if I got on the treadmill and started jogging, or went to the gym and started lifting weights, what tango related skills will that improve faster than spending that same time practicing tango?
I'm not criticizing anyone for doing whatever they think works for them. I just think a lot of people make the erroneous assumption of everything that applies to them must apply to everyone else. It's just not true, IMO.
Maybe it's true that if you were fat, you couldn't do all the same things you do now, but I've been fat for a very long time (including when I was in the Army), and I've been able to do pretty much anything that anyone else can do, (and sometimes better than average, which drove "fit" people crazy on the basketball court, soccer field, etc. when I was younger).
To be honest, tango is lot less physically demanding than a lot of activities I've done, and what surprised and still fascinates me is the mental/analytical challenges of it (at least for leading, as I don't know that much about what followers go through).
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Whilst I agree with your points:
So I think some targetted exercise would be good for Tango. In the same way that professional footballers (soccer players) do exercises that are not always about "practicing football".
Well, I think there are some targetted exercises that might help better than simply "practicing tango" - obvious examples are balance, twisting movements, and working on the lats (for dissociation).
So I think some targetted exercise would be good for Tango. In the same way that professional footballers (soccer players) do exercises that are not always about "practicing football".
We're probably not far apart of this one. I do some balance exercises from time to time, but they are focused on improving my balance, rather than improving my level of fitness. Soccer does require a lot of running, so anything to improve your stamina & speed is a good thing for it, and it's a lot more strenuous than Tango, (at least for fat guys like me).
tangomonkey
Active Member
dChester, you might be surprised at the results. Cardio and weight lifting give you stamina. That makes every-day activities and activities requiring a moderate amount of fitness (ie, tango) easy, even effortless.
Whenever I slack off at the gym (or don't go for a few weeks) I notice it in everything I do. I do some specific exercises which help my tango (balance, core), but would do them anyway. I exercise to - hopefully - allow my body to age less rapidly than it would otherwise, since that is a well-documented outcome. Any tango benefits (imagined or real) are secondary.
I don't disagree (well, I do somewhat
) that time spent exercising would be better spent dancing/practicing tango, if the goal is solely to be a better tango dancer.
Earlier in the thread the Tango life style was discussed. I recently came across a 1939 Western Swing tune that used son clave (as confirmed by TangoTime) and was looking at the history of that rhythm, and rumba, and came across this.
“I was born in the neighborhood called Simpson. You had rumba for lunch and rumba for dinner . . . so, you had to learn rumba . . . Young and old, with great respect, and consideration. It was a whole way of life. [In other words, we’re born with the rumba] and we will die with the rumba”—Chachá Vega.[14]
“I was born in the neighborhood called Simpson. You had rumba for lunch and rumba for dinner . . . so, you had to learn rumba . . . Young and old, with great respect, and consideration. It was a whole way of life. [In other words, we’re born with the rumba] and we will die with the rumba”—Chachá Vega.[14]
opendoor
Forum Master
Hi Steve, please note, that Rumba in this respect in not Rumba. The cited Rumba (cubana) is a creol way of life, kind of a religion, rhythm and rites merge. What everyone calls (international) Rumba is a slow Son cubano in reality.
In tango-words: the role of rumba in Cuba would resemble the role of Candombe in Argentina.