Some Questions of a Lonely Lead

[Mario7]

It's Friday nite and in this Tango Dessert there are no Milongas...imagine!
Anyway, I've got this idea of a continuing thread where I post my current
struggle to understand the Tango footwork.
This is the 16th month into my Tango Obsession and I am just now starting to see the forest thru the trees. The Milonga (song) and the Vals
never seemed to present a 'problem' to me..it was enjoyable from the beginning and my dance partners almost always finished the dance with a smile and enjoyment. The Tango, however, was a struggle from the start.
I had to curb my enthusiasm for the music and stick to simple walking and a few turns..I figured that if I only dance one or two dances with each woman, they wouldn't get too bored. And so it was until I arrived in my Winter get-away and found only the opportunity to dance once a week and that once is not so hot. OK, I'm here until the end of April and having to practise alone, I'm determined to at least to come out of this stay with a clearer understanding of the Tango...I'm deconstructing a few unelaborate dances (posted on the 'What are you currently working on?' thread) and this has given me a more comprehensive view of the dance as a whole. I've been told that I 'think too much' but what else is there to do?...I haven't spent a moment's thought on the Vals nor the Milonga and that turned out fine for a very enjoyable social dance..but the Tango is different...or is it? In Tango I try to inject the musicality into my walks but the women seem to want to do more...and so do I.
I admire Jorge Firpo for his strong dance...the women seem to get quite a workout with him and he is definately focused on connection and musicality...(my aim, also). Here is a video of him kicking butt (so to speak);
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9IORQeCmsA
Eventually, I want to be able to generate the same kind of excitement.:notworth:

 

[Mario7]

The First Question..

Here is a video of Carlitos y Mamie dancing Tango. It was shot on a cell phone and is not very clear but I'm going to use the first half of the tape
to begin my million and one questions...I'm wanting to find out if some things that I am observing are true...what I would like to learn are the little short-cuts that experienced leads must have in order to easily know where they are and what they have to do [and not do], next. for example...what moves are made from parallel and what moves are made from cross feet position?...are ochos the only side step that exists in cross feet..are side steps only done in parallel, otherwise? These are the kinds of questions that I'm starting to ask myself.
OK, if you can bear with me, perhaps this will become an edifying thread for young leads like myself..I have lots of questions and I do believe that they are important ones..
I'd like to begin with what I'm looking at today, the first half of this tape;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNjUapyjC1E
I'm using the Space Bar to stop and start the tape rapidly to see the footing..I'm asking if these several single axis quick turns and step overs are always done pivoting on the man's and woman's same leg? That is; right to right and left to left.
Bear with me...you can watch the time elapsed at the bottom of the YouTube frame and if you let the video load first, you can go to the exact part of the video that you want by moving the cursor with your mouse and watching the elapsed time.
the following sequences were all started with the same foot of the Man
placed next to the same foot of the Woman;
At 22 secs. it's M right foot to W right foot for a quick single axis turn
At 33 secs it's M left to W left foot for a stop and step around (don't know what to call it but it's sexy)
At 35 secs. Its M rt. to W rt. for another single axis turn
At 45 secs. it's M lft. to W lft. for a high sacada and a step around/over..(NO single axis turn).
At 1:04 mins it's M rt to W rt for an immediate single axis turn.
This raises another question..are all single axis turns in Tango, done with
the Man's right foot placed next to the Woman's right foot and done around to the right ??
If you can comment on any of this, at any place in this thread, I will be very grateful...also, any suggestions for simplification of teminology and description would also be greatly appreciated.:friend:

 

[Steve Pastor]

This raises another question..are all single axis turns in Tango, done with
the Man's right foot placed next to the Woman's right foot and done around to the right ??

Not always, but usually. This is largely due to the asymetric nature of the "embrace".
Some things are just easier going one direction than the other.

 

[kieronneedscake]

Mmmmm tango dessert...

I presume you mean desert, in which case I have the deepest sympathy for you. Tango dessert? No sympathy.

Sidesteps, parallel, cross steps... If you can think of a combination, there is no reason you can't lead it. Some are more difficult than others, such as leading a sidestep while personally performing some kind of ocho. What about not moving yourself at all but leading steps around you in circles? These sorts of things are good practice, but not necessarily what you want to be inflicting on most followers when a more simple approach will yield bigger smiles. Separating your lead from your legs is the key element, the rest is up to your capacity to balance and move freely.

The secret of greater experience is that you can boil down all the variety into a few principles and assemble them in any way you see fit. This helps you think less about what you should be doing and more about what is the best fit for the music, the space and the partner from wherever you are now. You can also begin to judge whether you can succeed with whatever combination you may be thinking of given your present partner.

I think too much as well. It hasn't stopped me.

 

[Angel HI]

Hola Mario,

Just finished a tour in Leon and Guanajato...didn't make it up to San Miguel. We've talked before about how much I like it there. Perhaps, next time. Your questions are always welcomed and apropos. Actually, there is another fairly new poster whom I will direct here, and who could benefit much from your questions, so keep asking.

...what I would like to learn are the little short-cuts that experienced leads must have in order to easily know where they are and what they have to do [and not do], next. for example...what moves are made from parallel and what moves are made from cross feet position?...are ochos the only side step that exists in cross feet..are side steps only done in parallel, otherwise?

The more direct answers for you are; no, ochos are not the only side step options, and no, side steps may be danced in parallel.

One of the complexities of AT is that the dance changes every 2 steps...meaning that there are multiple possibilities every 2 steps. In that, there are no real short-cuts, just good balance/movement/leads. It is important for a lead to knwo where they are, but it is more important to know where the follow is at every given moment. A subsequent lead has more to do with how she responded at the desired moment than what we might have intended prior to.

What is known as crossed feet position (ironically, a term that even its creator/s say is incorrect/doesn't exist), is one of the attributes of AT that make it different and exciting. It is practically impossible to name the moves that one can do from either position; parallel or crossed. Kieron's and Steve's posts are accurate...if [a movement] is comfortable for the both of you...try it. I do understand your question to be what moves are, and how does one know? A question almost w/o an answer.

.....are all single axis turns in Tango, done with
the Man's right foot placed next to the Woman's right foot and done around to the right ??

No, not necessarily.

 

[Mario7]

The secret of greater experience is that you can boil down all the variety into a few principles and assemble them in any way you see fit. This helps you think less about what you should be doing and more about what is the best fit for the music, the space and the partner from wherever you are now.

Thanks everyone. This is very helpful. Yes, the above quote is exactly
what I am looking to do..to arrive at that stage of experience and I guess
that it's a little different for each person.
OK, I've been dancing and watching at practicas, Milongas, youTube, classes, etc for 15 mos and I am now starting to see the dance as a whole instead of isolated parts that I can't seem to fit together.
This is the video that I was watching when I got my recent Eureaka!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX-nunHKNqs
Here, this Milonguero couple does a beautiful dance with just a few figures...walk to the cross, back crosses, Giro left, ocho cortado, atras.
It fits the above description of a few things that fit the music..it's so well
learned that it's automatic it seems...and heck, can't I learn to put together 4 or 5 sequences so that I could do them in my sleep??
Anyway, that is/was my revealation...and how the cross footed walk to
the cross and ochos, set everything up..and how once the cross is accomplished, the dancers are in Parallel again..and so they cross again...usually hee hee.
So, in hindsight, I would say that a beginning lead should be directed to something so simple that he can get out on the dancefloor as soon as possible. Also, appropo is the fact that I am finding myself watching, on YouTube, the feet of the women as much as I am watching the men's..this is brand new and it seems like soon I will be watching the woman's feet more than the man's. I'm feeling good about seeing the dance the way I am now..I can see it more clearly.
Here is another question, please;
30 seconds into this tape Jorge Firpo throws his first ocho cortado starting with a quick quarter turn to the left...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O6GBd0V4dM
There are more of this in the video...now, could this move be tried with
just any woman or does she have to be good? The beginning where he wips the follow to his left, is there only one way for her to step to this or is there several? Does he wait to see that a certain foot is free first? I'm supposing that he must...is there an easy way to understand the first half of this move where he is sending her around to his left and then taking that stance and bringing her right foot around to come back in what looks like a front cross?? ...is he then looking at her right foot to judge his timing? The thing is; I want to master a small set of effective moves and
this one is about the sexyist Milonguero move I've seen..hee hee thanks:friend:

 

[Peaches]

One of the complexities of AT is that the dance changes every 2 steps...meaning that there are multiple possibilities every 2 steps.

Could you explain this a bit more, please, Angel? Obviously, I get the concept of a very free-form dance with endless possibilities, but I don't understand the "every two steps" part. Why not every step, as I have understood it so far?

What is known as crossed feet position (ironically, a term that even its creator/s say is incorrect/doesn't exist), is one of the attributes of AT that make it different and exciting.

Also, could you explain this a bit? I don't understand why it is said that it "doesn't exist." And particularly not why/how its creators could say that. Obviously, there is something going on when both partners are on the same foot, and it would seem to make as much sense as anything else to call it something for ease of talking about it.

Furthermore, don't similar things happen in ballroom? (I don't know, I'm asking.) Not in Standard, that I know of (ha!), but what about Smooth and Latin/Rhythm? Isn't it possible for both partners to be on the same foot in things like cape/shadow position (don't know what the difference is), or just for certain moves? And possibly swing, but I have absolutely no clue about any of that.

 

[kieronneedscake]

Also, appropo is the fact that I am finding myself watching, on YouTube, the feet of the women as much as I am watching the men's..this is brand new and it seems like soon I will be watching the woman's feet more than the man's. I'm feeling good about seeing the dance the way I am now..I can see it more clearly.

Here is another question, please;
30 seconds into this tape Jorge Firpo throws his first ocho cortado starting with a quick quarter turn to the left...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O6GBd0V4dM
There are more of this in the video...now, could this move be tried with
just any woman or does she have to be good? The beginning where he wips the follow to his left, is there only one way for her to step to this or is there several? Does he wait to see that a certain foot is free first? I'm supposing that he must...

Ok... one point leads onto another.

The man's feet are not so important. He can do many things with his body that will make beautiful tango movements which do not rely on his actual steps at all. The real action is higher up in him. Note that the ground still gives him strength and stability, it's just that his footwork is little more than fancy dressing on the really important bits.

It helped me a lot to start thinking through my partner's feet. There they are at the other end of her legs, but I imagine my way down through her body to position them as accurately as I can. When my brain is able to (it's pretty difficult), it is great to imagine a beautiful dance for her, and then to fit my body into that picture only in so far as it supports this beautiful follower's dance.

This idea helps to protect you from asking your partner to do uncomfortable and needlessly difficult things through your own not realising what you ask of her.

Jorge knows where his partner's weight is, and he knows what foot she is using at all times, because he made very very sure that is where she will be. No looking is required, just clarity of purpose in each step he leads, and the trust that she will not do something unexpected.


Ocho cortados are a tough one to spring on some beginners. I've not had much success with anyone who has not specifically learned it at some point. Maybe if your lead is fantastically strong it will succeed, but by and large it's a different feeling (like the cross/crusada) that the body needs to be shown before it will willingly go. Usually my inexperienced partners will go the long way round, turning it into a back ocho. It's not the easy solution to the problem, but it is the only one they know.

 

[Angel HI]

Here is another question, please;
30 seconds into this tape Jorge Firpo throws his first ocho cortado starting with a quick quarter turn to the left...now, could this move be tried with just any woman or does she have to be good?

This is actually not a very difficult movement. The answer is below.

The beginning where he whips the follow to his left, is there only one way for her to step to this or is there several?

Again, understand that there are several possibilities, but only one inteniton. This might sound superficial, but it is not. Ironically, the answer is the same...Kieron answers it well.

Does he wait to see that a certain foot is free first? ....is there an easy way to understand the first half of this move??

OK, I'll stop making you wait. Here you are.......

Ok... one point leads onto another.

The man's feet are not so important. He can do many things with his body that will make beautiful tango movements which do not rely on his actual steps at all.

Jorge knows where his partner's weight is, and he knows what foot she is using at all times, because he made very very sure that is where she will be.

The answer is to not think so much of the man's steps, but, moreso, the man's position/s on his circle. By this, he will direct "an intention". At all given moments, he must know exactly where her weight is. This is the controversial, but most important part. If she is dancing correctly...weighted in the middle of her steps...the man always knows whether she is on a forward/back walk, or on a facing step (sometimes called side or open). If he knows this, he may redirect her at either point b/c he knows exactly where her balance is.

Arrepentidas are a great exercize for this.

 

[Angel HI]

Could you explain this a bit more, please, Angel? ....I don't understand the "every two steps" part. Why not every step, as I have understood it so far?

You are correct, one may change course on either step. We often say 2 steps in Argentina b/c the movement is regarded as 1 step to initialize (lead) the movement, and one step to follow through (follow). After this completed action, another possibility exists.

Also, could you explain this a bit? I don't understand why it is said that it "doesn't exist." And particularly not why/how its creators could say that.

Furthermore, don't similar things happen in ballroom? .... cape/shadow position ....

Forgive my laziness in looking up an interview by Fabian Salas which would reference this. Steve Pastor knows where it is. Maybe he will stop by, or I'll look it up if you like.

In the interview, Fabian says that they (he and Gustavo Naviera) invented the term for the movement that was already being danced, but had no official designation. Further, that it is somewhat of a misnomer. Normal dance uses more of a crossed-foot systeme in that the man's left moves w/ the lady's right, and the so-called crossed-foot systeme is better labled parallel b/c 2 opposing lines move symmetrically in the same direction.

Again, you are correct in that many movements in BR use this systeme. In fact, it is much better to understand when looking at, say, a rock in shadow position, that the movement is actually in parallel not crossed feet. However, as Fav says, the term caught on, and we are stuck w/ it.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Talk about timing!

The second half of the interview Angel refers to can be found here -

http://www.totango.net/salas2.html

Look about 2/3 of the way down the page

Keith: Can I ask a really dumb question? Where did the Cross System come from? Is that your work?

It's one that I've had bookmarked for a long time.
This is a great interview. One thing is that Salas says that tango is simply a walking dance, AND later, that it is very complicated.
Such is life in the real world.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Just a note here that in country western "partner promenade" dances such as the Schottische and Traveling, or Cowboy, cha cha, and HorseShoe Shuffle are all in "crossed system", if that's how you want to think of it. (ie the name and woman step on the same foot at the same time)
What's different, though, is that when you do these dances you only rarely (once in Sweetheart Schottische (there are others!)) face your partner in a "closed" position.
In years of doing these dances I never once thought of being in "crossed system" when doing the country dances.

In a non tango tangent, I recently noted the similarities between schottische and Texas Tommy, and anxiously await comments on that observation from experts in that field.

 

[tangonuevo]

...
This raises another question..are all single axis turns in Tango, done with
the Man's right foot placed next to the Woman's right foot and done around to the right ??...:friend:

Actually, one of the easiest single axis turns places the man's left foot inside of the woman's right and rotates to the left, counterclockwise. I am not a youtube aficionado so can't immediately point out an example, but... from an over turned back ocho with the follow pivoting on her right, lead her to not step out back with her left, but instead the man steps in with his left and the turn can pivot nearly 180 degrees - depending on where the man placed his foot - before it either ends or at least requires adjustment. I'll look for a youtube example later this week.

 

[Mario7]

Lots of food for thought and practise

This is the controversial, but most important part. If she is dancing correctly...weighted in the middle of her steps...the man always knows whether she is on a forward/back walk, or on a facing step (sometimes called side or open). If he knows this, he may redirect her at either point b/c he knows exactly where her balance is.
Arrepentidas are a great exercize for this.

Great posts, everyone! They give me a lot to work on today.
And another mil gracias for that single-axis turn to the left !

 

[tangonuevo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwSkK1QtkeM

Not as elegant as it could be, but certainly serviceable. Note that Dario steps outside of his partner's foot. With additional contra-body, he could step inside. The step inside plus the contra-body allow the turn to be executed entirely as a pivot for 180 degrees with no need for the man to put his right foot down until he walks out. Yes, they need good balance, but this is tango after all . The contra-body will add elegance as well as help to gently power the pivot.

Note this can also be easily executed as a colgada by either 1. Providing proper outward energy at the start of the pivot, or 2. Using suspension and then gently separating the partner's centers as the pivot turn proceeds.