Standard dancer adding smooth?

ProgressNotPerfection said:
[At my first lesson in Standard] He introduced me to several bronze syllabus figures, and then tried to lead me through them: 1/2 natural turn, natural spin turn, second half L turn, double reverse spin (heel turn), full reverse turn, whisk, chassé from promenade to closed position.
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(Note: I’m not positive I wrote those down exactly right after my first lesson, but that’s what my notes say.)

So, it turns out that SP is teaching me this string in a repeating loop. For now, that makes it easier for me to follow, since I know what’s coming next, and I can associate from the beginning what the lead feels like into and out of each part. (I cannot count the number of times I have had to stop Pro and say, “wait - I thought you were leading me into X just now - that was actually Y? Ok, show me again how I can tell the difference between the two?” And then we have to practice both X and Y several times so I can feel what he’s doing.)

Of course, SP still stops me on just about every step to fix/adjust/address/explain something, but I’m starting to be able to see the overall shape.

And a comparison suddenly clicked in my brain yesterday: learning Standard is just like learning a foreign language. (Learning to dance was already like learning a foreign language, so maybe Standard is more like a specialized dialect of that same language, but whatever.) SP is teaching me one full sentence. We are learning not just the words in that sentence, but also the correct pronunciation, emphasis, intonation, volume, and proper punctuation and spelling of every word in that sentence. And we are going to repeat that sentence until I can say the entire thing correctly. Later, he will teach me new words, and hopefully I will be able to pronounce them correctly because of how well I learned that first sentence; and will, relatively quickly, be able to speak new sentences with those new words.

In Smooth, otoh, Pro has spent the last year teaching me a bunch of conversational phrases, but no complete sentences, and without much emphasis on grammar or punctuation. But now that I can roughly converse using those phrases, now he’s trying to improve those important details.

A few years from now, I wonder which language I will speak more fluently...?
 
opendoor said:
Do you think that also their teaching is style-dipendend or is it just the difference in proficiency?
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Are you asking if I think their respective teaching styles are related to my OWN proficiency in each style? Or the difference in proficiency level from where I started a year ago versus where I am now?
If the former, no.
If the latter, very possibly. That’s a good point.
opendoor said:
Hope you will return to argentine tango, do you? ;-)
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I haven’t tried that yet, but it looks like something I will enjoy someday. To me, AT feels like a whole separate culture from the formal ballroom instruction I’m receiving now.
 
ProgressNotPerfection said:
And a comparison suddenly clicked in my brain yesterday: learning Standard is just like learning a foreign language. (Learning to dance was already like learning a foreign language, so maybe Standard is more like a specialized dialect of that same language, but whatever.) SP is teaching me one full sentence. We are learning not just the words in that sentence, but also the correct pronunciation, emphasis, intonation, volume, and proper punctuation and spelling of every word in that sentence. And we are going to repeat that sentence until I can say the entire thing correctly. Later, he will teach me new words, and hopefully I will be able to pronounce them correctly because of how well I learned that first sentence; and will, relatively quickly, be able to speak new sentences with those new words.
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I think this analogy is spot on.
 
ProgressNotPerfection said:
[on rise and fall]

Hahaha! He did! I knew I hadn’t remembered everything he said. And once again, Standard waltz’s rise and fall is juuuuuust different enough from the American Smooth Bronze version that it trips me up mentally (my understanding thus far is that in Standard, you stay up on 2 all the way through 3, and don’t fall until slightly after 3, in the tiny space between 3 and 1; whereas in Smooth Bronze, you fall on/during 3, as your leg begins moving on the next step. I think in the higher levels of Smooth it’s more like - or the same as? - Standard rise and fall, but idk that for sure).
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Book timing for Standard is "continue to rise on 2 and 3, lower at the end of 3". If you count beat 3 as 3e&a, ideally I would go with a moment of weightlessness around the & subcount and lowering on the a. However, different people will count it differently. Then again, at a high level the music is shaded, so one isn't necessarily counting in strict tempo. I remember the first time I saw a show by a world champion - John Wood and Anne Lewis - someone commented that it seemed like they found enough time for four beats in the natural turn.

As for whether the lady's right leg begins moving while lowering, in my opinion the right foot would not start moving until fully lowered. However, I've only actually experienced a proper lead for this once, when I was being led by another world champion - Stephen Hillier - and I completed the lowering with both feet still closed and the weight in my left heel, ready to roll forward on the left foot to thrust into the next step. However, I think parts of my body and leg would already be moving forward if we were actually dancing into the next step as a result of the neutralization of sway, just not my feet. I've tried to understand and duplicate that lead ever since, and I'm still a long way from getting it.

In my opinion with best technique a Smooth bronze right turn should be exactly the same as a Standard natural turn with best technique. However, by the time one's technique is that good in Smooth, one usually isn't doing bronze any more, and Smooth silver turns are different figures from the bronze ones - in fact, the whole flow of the dance is different. I also think some of the differences you're hearing may be differences in description, rather than in actual action: as I mentioned, you leg might start moving forward while lowering even if your foot doesn't.

All that said, if you can differentiate between the two, ask your regular pro whether it's okay to do it the way your Standard pro is teaching it. Most likely he'll say it's fine, and you won't have to keep track of two separate ways to do the figure.

From the posts I’ve read here, it seems that the difference in approach is not necessarily tied to teaching Standard vs Smooth. But it does seem to me that SP’s approach is the better one for teaching Standard, since that style is so inherently technique-heavy. I feel like one can sometimes get away with sloppier technique in Smooth, at least in the lower levels; so maybe it’s not as critical to focus on technique with a beginner. That said, however, part of me wishes that Pro had taken the same approach in my smooth & rhythm lessons...although who knows if it would have turned me off if he had emphasized technique so heavily from the beginning. Maybe a student has to get “hooked” before she becomes willing to drill a single hip motion for an hour.
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I think one of the key points with respect to Standard and Smooth is that dancing out of body contact is not considered wrong in Smooth. This provides more latitude for deferring certain points of technique - not teaching you the wrong thing to make it work, which will result in having to unlearn things later, but just not teaching anything about it at all, in which case you're not really practicing either the right thing or the wrong thing. I think this is also true of Rhythm, and hip action is a good example: starting with no knowledge that hip action is an issue, doing a figure without hip action won't make learning proper hip action any more difficult than decades of walking without latin hip action already does.

In Smooth, otoh, Pro has spent the last year teaching me a bunch of conversational phrases, but no complete sentences, and without much emphasis on grammar or punctuation. But now that I can roughly converse using those phrases, now he’s trying to improve those important details.
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Perhaps partly true, but also to be considered is that the "grammar" of Standard is much more restrictive than the "grammar" of Smooth. The first half of a Standard natural turn is supposed to be exactly 3/8 of a turn, since around 1930; the first half of a Smooth bronze right turn can be anything between 0 and 3/8. This allows for a lot more flexibility in Smooth regarding how things can be put together.
 
ProgressNotPerfection said:
learning Standard is just like learning a foreign language… [StandardPro] is teaching me one full sentence. We are learning not just the words in that sentence, but also the correct pronunciation, emphasis, intonation, volume, and proper punctuation and spelling of every word in that sentence. …In Smooth, otoh, Pro has spent the last year teaching me a bunch of conversational phrases, but no complete sentences, and without much emphasis on grammar or punctuation. But now that I can roughly converse using those phrases, now he’s trying to improve those important details.
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So it turns out there’s yet another way to teach dance. Pro2 and I started our official Standard lessons, and spent the first one on CBM exercises. There’s lots of nuance I’m leaving out, but here’s the basic idea: faxing the mirror, stand with feet together and hands flat on ribcage, elbows pointed out away from body. Step forward on RF and turn upper body so that left elbow is pointing straight at the mirror. Return RF to starting position. Step forward on LF and turn upper body so that right elbow is pointing straight at the mirror. Return LF to starting position. Repeat 10,000 times, all the while keeping shoulders down and back, both sides stretched upwards, and neck extended so head position is correct. Oh - then do it another 10,000 times, but step backward instead of forward.

He described it as sort of a “twist” - the upper abs turn ribcage one way, while the lower abs turn hips the opposite way, and that’s what keeps the body in balance. He mimed wringing out a washcloth with both hands. We also danced a few steps so I could feel how it works with a partner.

I asked him, “when you teach Smooth, do you also teach this much CBM?”
“Eventually, yes.”
“But with Standard, you do this from the start?”
He shook his head.
“Or…you’re doing it from the start with me, because I already have experience?”
“Correct. I decided with you - I decided to go a different way. I wanted to do it right this time. I want to go exactly how it should be done, from changes, then right and left turn, and then adding thing after thing after thing. And then, when it’s time to do Quickstep, you already should know - you should have all the technical skills. Quickstep is not a dance to learn on. Quickstep is a dance to do things fast. But the learning is really in waltz…and foxtrot - slow foxtrot.”

I described to him my analogy about learning a new language, and how I was taught one full “sentence” last year, but never understood the grammar or the vocabulary behind it, even though I did learn how to roughly speak that one sentence. I told him I would rather start by learning the alphabet.

He nodded, saying, “that’s what I’m trying to do. I will add one thing at a time, adding letters together, and making bigger words, you know? Instead of ‘learn the whole sentence and then figure out what’s going on.’ Because I did that too. I mean, there are two approaches, and I think with you, this way will work better.”

I think he’s right.
 
@ProgressNotPerfection I'm very interested to hear that, as I have included pretty much the same exercise in my own warm up for a while now. I initially started it due to a dearth of rotational mobility and isolation capacity.

I never rotate that extremely in the dance itself. But I keep practicing it on the principle that you should frequently train with movements larger than the ones you use in your event, so that the actual range of motion feels easy.
 
j_alexandra said:
considering she seems to have read every single thread ever posted, yea even unto the early years, as she she practically single-handedly brought DF back to life, you’re probably right.
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Lol! Not every thread, but I admit I’m proud of my ability to remember and locate obscure discussions from years ago, almost in the manner of @Terpsichorean Clod (maybe someday people will call me Terpsichorean Claudette). I have a “wicked good” memory for words.
 
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