I’m very confused about the correct hold and poise/posture for Standard. It’s been my favorite style - for a long time. I don’t have any delusions that I’m a good Standard dancer. And, in the interest of full disclosure- I’m an Open Bronze level- so, I’m Bronze, aka, the lowest on the pole. I’ve been told by coaches and my teacher to project my head and neck backward to create shape - now it appears, I’m doing it wrong all this time- I’m not supposed to throw my head back, but rather up and to the left. Also I’m too light on my feet aka, not grounded. So it appears to me that I have to start from scratch- and relearn everything . And that sucks - because why was I not told this to start with. Much easier to learn the right way, than go back to basics and relearning. And a lot of $$$ on my end to do the coaching, lessons etc. I’m not complaining, and maybe this is my fault, for not ‘getting’ it. But it’s very frustrating to realize I’ve been doing it wrong all along. Any help is much appreciated.
Standard dancers need your input
- Thread starter sbrnsmith
- Start date
Mengu
Forum Master
You probably weren't told from the start because we cannot learn everything at the same time. Often times an instructor will have to decide something is good enough, and move on. It's funny I just had this conversation with my instructor as we were observing some newer students at the studio few days ago. We learn and relearn all the time. Don't worry about doing it wrong, we're all doing it wrong (except masters)... You were at a certain stage in your learning process, now you are moving on to another stage, and that is still far from mastery.
Head back is one of my pet peeves I see all the time. All it does is shorten your neck and give you pain. Head up is correct (but incomplete, what part of head is up?). Head left is generally correct, but sometimes more left. It's not stuck in same place all the time. I hate simple rules, there are always nuances, and there are often exceptions.
Head back is one of my pet peeves I see all the time. All it does is shorten your neck and give you pain. Head up is correct (but incomplete, what part of head is up?). Head left is generally correct, but sometimes more left. It's not stuck in same place all the time. I hate simple rules, there are always nuances, and there are often exceptions.
Joe
Forum Master
Actually, just throwing your head anywhere is a recipe for back pain. In a nutshell, your Standard posture is supposed to involve two curves in your body, from the top of your head to the bottom of your feet: a forward curve (where the "belly" of the curve goes forward), and a rightward curve. You should be able to maintain your weight over your feet without your partner. So, if you think less of throwing your head back or left, if you think of stretching your body vertically, and then moving your center forward and right, while softening your legs, that should be more helpful.
So true- I understand that I am only learning at my own pace. My intention was not to find someone to blame, even though my frustration sounds like that. I do believe that this has been mentioned before- but it didn’t resonate with me and/or I was not ready to hear, understand and apply that. Now my biggest concern is how to do it right, or at least try- and that is making me feel overwhelmed.
Larinda:
Thank you for the brilliantly clear, clearly brilliant explanation. I cannot like it enough.
Am sure I speak for many amateurs who feel your frustration!! We devote so many hours, dollars, energy, etc., and it is very difficult to separate the sense that we have been 'doing it wrong' from the realization that perhaps we have reached a new growth curve and are able to assimilate multiple concepts into something new. Have had a number of great coaches - some start with frame, others with footwork - and on top of that take ballet, where we usually start with understanding our core and building out from there regarding relationship to extremities. It has been alternately exciting and illuminating and conflicting and confounding. Am just reaching a level where I'm starting to understand how these approaches can come together into an understanding that I can build and apply to my own body. And I do mean only just getting a glimmer of it. And yes, it has been and is still fairly overwhelming
Well, doctors make their own choices about how, when and in what order to express technical details to patients, and what options to present for patient decision-making, and how to answer patient questions, etc -- and all of that is not always purely black-and-white. Perhaps I am ignorant of specifics underlying that comment, but for medicine generally it seems possible to me that the situation is not COMPLETELY different.
From the standpoint of a medically untrained patient confronted with medical authority, much often comes down to trust and comfort with a particular doctor (or set of doctors). And actually that was my first thought when I read the original post: sbrnsmith@, is your post strictly a matter of technical discussion, or are you questioning whether your dance teacher is the right dance teacher for you (e.g. "why was I not told this to start with", though I think Larinda made excellent points about that among other things)?
Or, are you maybe "just" arriving at another inflection point in your progress as a dancer?
PS. This is not the first time it has seemed to me from one of your DF posts that that last option might be the case. If it *is* the case... er, do YOU also notice when that happens?
PPS. All questions above are intended to be rhetorical.
FancyFeet
Forum Master
Ah, ladies' poise... so challenging to do right! I highly recommend reading this:
https://riotandfrolic.typepad.com/blog/2012/03/dont-dance-what-you-see-episode-vi-ladies-poise.html
It can, as Larinda pointed out, take years to get strong enough not only to hold the position but to create it the right way. It can also take years to find "your" version of it! Personally, I set up more left than other ladies (I have long arms), which means I have less leftward stretch. Mine is mostly up... which I create by lifting my sternum and leaving my head and neck position totally alone/in neutral, and by sending the right side of my ribcage forward. Together, those create the illusion of left and back, but I'm really stretching up and forward... see why it's easy to misunderstand/try to produce what you see the wrong way?
I have explained this to people in words, and demonstrated in literally only a sports bra and leggings so that people can see, but it works best when I let them get all handsy, either plastered against me or with hands/arms against me so that they can feel. (Dance can be so classy!) I highly recommend a lesson with a female standard specialist - gents understand the theory, but sometimes you just need a "girl lesson" to really get how it works.
https://riotandfrolic.typepad.com/blog/2012/03/dont-dance-what-you-see-episode-vi-ladies-poise.html
It can, as Larinda pointed out, take years to get strong enough not only to hold the position but to create it the right way. It can also take years to find "your" version of it! Personally, I set up more left than other ladies (I have long arms), which means I have less leftward stretch. Mine is mostly up... which I create by lifting my sternum and leaving my head and neck position totally alone/in neutral, and by sending the right side of my ribcage forward. Together, those create the illusion of left and back, but I'm really stretching up and forward... see why it's easy to misunderstand/try to produce what you see the wrong way?
I have explained this to people in words, and demonstrated in literally only a sports bra and leggings so that people can see, but it works best when I let them get all handsy, either plastered against me or with hands/arms against me so that they can feel. (Dance can be so classy!) I highly recommend a lesson with a female standard specialist - gents understand the theory, but sometimes you just need a "girl lesson" to really get how it works.
opendoor
Forum Master
You are quite other-directed. Why not define yours as the right way. You have several opportunities: to swap styles, to define your own style, become a teacher. Why do you adjust to somebody else?
I totally agree that the virus/antibiotics gist is fair enough. I guess that in a nutshell I was focusing on the "knowledge asymmetry" angle, which I think is also fair, and also pops up in many doctor-patient and teacher-student and other expert-nonexpert circumstances (edit to add: ... and might be relatable to a doctor).
ANNE ANNE AAAAAANNNNNNNNNE
<cough> Sorry, I got carried away. She is my idol.
I'm so sorry I missed her lecture last summer. Thanks for posting this clip. Pardon me while I watch it 250 times.
<cough> Sorry, I got carried away. She is my idol.
I'm so sorry I missed her lecture last summer. Thanks for posting this clip. Pardon me while I watch it 250 times.
Dancer Bob
Active Member
A lot of red flags here.
"Open" bronze- the two standard syllabuses I'm familiar with are ISTD and DVIDA, neither have an "open" section, nor any other other standard syllabus I've heard of. Open can have several meanings, none of which make sense in this context. Most replies talk about competitors (a highly structured and artificial environment) even though you didn't mention competition.
Technique isn't precisely defined but it's a process that starts at beginner (with proper curving of the spine) and improves through gold star. If you're being pushed for silver level when you're not really at bronze, you should be aware of and happy with that.
"too light"- lady carries her own weight, does her own steps and responds to the lead. Beyond that, I'm interested in hearing the analysis for this.
Coaches- plural- at the bronze level- rather unusual.
Are you sure you're confident about the many people charging you many $$$? About what you want to accomplish?
"Open" bronze- the two standard syllabuses I'm familiar with are ISTD and DVIDA, neither have an "open" section, nor any other other standard syllabus I've heard of. Open can have several meanings, none of which make sense in this context. Most replies talk about competitors (a highly structured and artificial environment) even though you didn't mention competition.
Technique isn't precisely defined but it's a process that starts at beginner (with proper curving of the spine) and improves through gold star. If you're being pushed for silver level when you're not really at bronze, you should be aware of and happy with that.
"too light"- lady carries her own weight, does her own steps and responds to the lead. Beyond that, I'm interested in hearing the analysis for this.
Coaches- plural- at the bronze level- rather unusual.
Are you sure you're confident about the many people charging you many $$$? About what you want to accomplish?
I'm no pro, and I certainly can't advise you any better than Larinda re: what feeling you should chase to achieve the desired shape. But I've been focusing heavily on posture (and anatomy) myself for the last couple of years, so the topic really interests me and I can't help chiming in.
As an analytical type, what interested me most at first is how am I organizing my muscles and bones when I stand up properly. That's different from feelings--there is only one "correct" organization, but each individual will use different feelings to get there. Here are some things I've learned.
*******
The spine has four main sections in it, three of which matter for dance posture:
--Cervical (neck)
--Thoracic (ribs)
--Lumbar (between ribs and pelvis)
--Sacral (tail area. This is the one that doesn't really matter)
Each of these sections has a natural curve, the extent of which varies between individuals. The L and C spine are concave backwards, while the T spine is concave forward.
What distinguishes dance posture from everyday posture is that we are actively attempting to decrease the curvature of the C, T, and L spine. The "theoretical" ideal dance posture in the spine is one with almost no curvature. This makes you look maximally tall and long.
(note: this is purely theoretical! A purely straight spine is a REALLY dangerous thing--those natural curves are important for load-bearing and shock absorption. A number of professional ballet dancers actually suffer injuries related to overextended spines. But for amateurs like us, who are not sufficiently trained to the point where we are at risk of that, it's a useful rule-of-thumb to remember)
The feelings your teachers talk about are all oriented at straightening these three curves. For example, "chin down, head back" is one feeling you can use to extend the C spine. "Toned core, suck in the belly" is a feeling that you can use to extend the L spine. And "raised sternum" is a feeling that helps extend the T spine.
*******
One of the main problems I've had to overcome--which may also apply to you--is proper awareness of the T spine. When told to "raise my sternum", I often would do this incorrectly by bending backward slightly through the L spine. That's only natural; backwards is the way the L spine naturally bends! But this meant I was INCREASING the L curve, rather than extending the T curve. That gets very uncomfortable very fast, puts my weight in the wrong place, and makes me look like a misshapen hunchback. All kinds of bad stuff.
(I had to do a lot of stretching and weird body-weight exercises to gain good awareness of the muscles involved in extending the T spine, and my mobility there is still a work-in-progress. However, I was hindered by literal decades of doing sports where not only was thoracic mobility unimportant, but the exercises I was doing significantly decreased it. Hopefully, you are not in the same boat there, and will not have such a steep hill to climb)
By contrast, if you look at images of highly skilled dancers--especially followers--you will note that their spines have little perceptible curve, even in the lumbar and neck regions. Pay specially close attention to flatness of their upper backs (T spine); THAT is where the magical, backward-stretched illusion comes from.
*******
As for feelings, the one that worked for me is almost exactly what Larinda described. Listen to her! But also knowing what I was trying to accomplish mechanically helped me put that feeling into perspective, and use it more intelligently. Perhaps this will help you a little bit, too.
As an analytical type, what interested me most at first is how am I organizing my muscles and bones when I stand up properly. That's different from feelings--there is only one "correct" organization, but each individual will use different feelings to get there. Here are some things I've learned.
*******
The spine has four main sections in it, three of which matter for dance posture:
--Cervical (neck)
--Thoracic (ribs)
--Lumbar (between ribs and pelvis)
--Sacral (tail area. This is the one that doesn't really matter)
Each of these sections has a natural curve, the extent of which varies between individuals. The L and C spine are concave backwards, while the T spine is concave forward.
What distinguishes dance posture from everyday posture is that we are actively attempting to decrease the curvature of the C, T, and L spine. The "theoretical" ideal dance posture in the spine is one with almost no curvature. This makes you look maximally tall and long.
(note: this is purely theoretical! A purely straight spine is a REALLY dangerous thing--those natural curves are important for load-bearing and shock absorption. A number of professional ballet dancers actually suffer injuries related to overextended spines. But for amateurs like us, who are not sufficiently trained to the point where we are at risk of that, it's a useful rule-of-thumb to remember)
The feelings your teachers talk about are all oriented at straightening these three curves. For example, "chin down, head back" is one feeling you can use to extend the C spine. "Toned core, suck in the belly" is a feeling that you can use to extend the L spine. And "raised sternum" is a feeling that helps extend the T spine.
*******
One of the main problems I've had to overcome--which may also apply to you--is proper awareness of the T spine. When told to "raise my sternum", I often would do this incorrectly by bending backward slightly through the L spine. That's only natural; backwards is the way the L spine naturally bends! But this meant I was INCREASING the L curve, rather than extending the T curve. That gets very uncomfortable very fast, puts my weight in the wrong place, and makes me look like a misshapen hunchback. All kinds of bad stuff.
(I had to do a lot of stretching and weird body-weight exercises to gain good awareness of the muscles involved in extending the T spine, and my mobility there is still a work-in-progress. However, I was hindered by literal decades of doing sports where not only was thoracic mobility unimportant, but the exercises I was doing significantly decreased it. Hopefully, you are not in the same boat there, and will not have such a steep hill to climb)
By contrast, if you look at images of highly skilled dancers--especially followers--you will note that their spines have little perceptible curve, even in the lumbar and neck regions. Pay specially close attention to flatness of their upper backs (T spine); THAT is where the magical, backward-stretched illusion comes from.
*******
As for feelings, the one that worked for me is almost exactly what Larinda described. Listen to her! But also knowing what I was trying to accomplish mechanically helped me put that feeling into perspective, and use it more intelligently. Perhaps this will help you a little bit, too.
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cornutt
Forum Master
One thing that is worth keeping in mind is not only what you're doing, but why you're doing it. Posture and shape is part of the "look" of the dance to a spectator... but more importantly, it plays a huge role in connection and in being able to move as a couple; two interconnected-but-not-fused-together pieces. I could try to describe what it feels like from a lead's perspective, but I don't know if it's a description that would make sense to a follow. Larinda can do a much better job of elaborating on this than I can.