Standard Geekery

[j_alexandra]

I generally want my follower to step between my feet, but I think it is entirely my job to make that happen. The part that I think is their job is maintaining strong, communicative contact between my outer right thigh and their inner left.

About that strong, communicative contact between thighs:

I had never, ever done this before today. Tried it in today's lesson with Teach leading the figure this way. I spontaneously asked him not to do that again, please.

That thigh-to-thigh contact feels to me like it's inhibiting him from making space for me to put my foot between his. It feels invasive. It feels constricting. It feels pushy and forced.

I don't know what he does to make it feel effortless for me to do alllllll that rotation, but he does. Without thigh contact.

YMMV. Obviously. (Duh.)

 

[Warren J. Dew]

I don't know what he does to make it feel effortless for me to do alllllll that rotation, but he does. Without thigh contact.

I would guess he's providing a lead from his body to lead your body movement and rotation - whether or not from body contact - and your feet are just going where they need to go to support what your body is doing? That's what I would try to do.

 

[madmaximus]

M, my original question was not how, but what: do you want your follow to step between your feet, or outside?

We're talking about the 4th of the FSP, right?
Yeah, I guess my answer wasn't quite obvious.
I have a different view—I wait for my partner before I commit to my foot placement.
Being on the inside of the turn, I wait half a hiccup till my follow's pelvis is in the right spot AND landed her LF; only then do I place my RF.
If I do my job right, my RF should be aligned right between my follow's feet.
(So, to answer your question...put me down on the "outside" camp).



M

 

[Joe]

Can you link a video?

This video does not contain the whole figure, but at 0:29 in the middle of a slip pivot, Karen seems to step pretty clearly between Marcus' feet with her left foot.

But that's a big top, not a fallaway reverse, so the body mechanics may be different prior to the slip pivot.

 

[j_alexandra]

But that's a big top, not a fallaway reverse, so the body mechanics may be different prior to the slip pivot.

Oooo missed that. My bad. So it is. Totally different figure; totally different body mechanics. But she's still stepping between his feet, which IIRC is also what I do in a Big Top.

 

[j_alexandra]

I would guess he's providing a lead from his body to lead your body movement and rotation and your feet are just going where they need to go to support what your body is doing?

Well, yeah. That's pretty much the definition of leading, 'round these parts.

 

[j_alexandra]

We're talking about the 4th of the FSP, right?
Yeah, I guess my answer wasn't quite obvious.
I have a different view—I wait for my partner before I commit to my foot placement.
Being on the inside of the turn, I wait half a hiccup till my follow's pelvis is in the right spot AND landed her LF; only then do I place my RF.
If I do my job right, my RF should be aligned right between my follow's feet.
(So, to answer your question...put me down on the "outside" camp).



M

Outside? Le sigh. I'd say, "we can't be friends any more" except that this poem is lovely and "half a hiccup" is now my new favorite demarcation of time.

 

[j_alexandra]

Oooo missed that. My bad. So it is. Totally different figure; totally different body mechanics. But she's still stepping between his feet, which IIRC is also what I do in a Big Top.

eta: Maybe not; can't really remember, it's been a while. Will have to investigate this in next lesson. We do Big Top in Waltz and Tango, fwiw.

 

[Joe]

Oooo missed that. My bad. So it is. Totally different figure; totally different body mechanics. But she's still stepping between his feet, which IIRC is also what I do in a Big Top.

Right, the slip pivot is "the same" as the end of the FR; I'm just pointing out that the differing mechanics may—or may not—make it easier to slip between.

 

[j_alexandra]

Over on the Lessons thread, @Cal wrote:

Oooooh – I’ll play! Reasons for Follows to know Syllabus figures:

(i) if you get stuck dancing with an imperfect Lead such as myself, and let’s say that Lead doesn’t give you a textbook lead for a particular figure, or hesitates a bit on a rotation, or doesn’t give quite enough CBM, or whatever, it can sometimes be helpful if the Follow knows where/how that particular figure ends and can at least TRY to “finish” the Follow’s part of the figure correctly (I’m NOT saying “backlead”)

go ahead, say it -- or I'll do it for you: BACKLEAD

so that the Lead might have a fighting chance of “finishing” the Lead’s part; you know - working together;

^ THIS

(ii) if the Follow can do (i), then there is a better chance that the Lead will be able to keep the dance flowing without a lot of bumping, and won’t have to continually pause and re-adjust alignments or to check which of the Follow’s feet is free between figures;

^THIS THIS except what??? checking which of Follow's feet is free? What the actual?

(iii) if the hapless Lead asks for input on what might have gone wrong with the figure, the Follow might be able to provide something specific that the Lead can actually work on (e.g., I need to finish this figure backing DC, so we need to make a 3/8 rotation on the third step, and we managed less than a ¼ rotation, so maybe more CBM on that step would help…);

^THIS THIS THIS

(iv) if the Follow is working on something during a lesson with their perfect Pro Lead, and their Pro Lead says something like “let’s take it from the Telemark”, it wastes less lesson time if the Follow knows what a Telemark is, rather than asking whether it’s that’s “whirly thingy that we do right after that cute step up in the corner” and then guessing wrong as to which foot it starts on;

^THIS THIS THIS THIS I"m sorry to say, too damn often, back in the day

(v) having the knowledge, just for its own sake.

There aren't enough THIS's

But here's the thing: for me, it all happens when, as @Warren J. Dew wrote, I

want to be able to do all of (my) part as follower while still following the leader's lead

^THIS to the MAX

I have two dance minds, now. One riffles through the rolodex of syllabus chart for each figure. The other stops thinking, shuts up and dances. I do one when I'm studying/learning; I do the other when I'm dancing.

I never, ever thought I'd see this day.

If I may... boast... yesterday's lesson, Teach and I (me F, him L) were going through my (recently revised) routine for the Associate exam. We made about six measures before he stopped me and said WTTE of "Thank you for helping me through this. I don't have to do it all any more."

I didn't even know that I was doing it.

YMMV but I hope you have this deleriously delicious experience some day.

 

[Cal]

Over on the Lessons thread, @Cal wrote:


go ahead, say it -- or I'll do it for you: BACKLEAD


^ THIS



^THIS THIS except what??? checking which of Follow's feet is free? What the actual?



^THIS THIS THIS



^THIS THIS THIS THIS I"m sorry to say, too damn often, back in the day


There aren't enough THIS's

But here's the thing: for me, it all happens when, as @Warren J. Dew wrote, I

^THIS to the MAX

I have two dance minds, now. One riffles through the rolodex of syllabus chart for each figure. The other stops thinking, shuts up and dances. I do one when I'm studying/learning; I do the other when I'm dancing.

I never, ever thought I'd see this day.

If I may... boast... yesterday's lesson, Teach and I (me F, him L) were going through my (recently revised) routine for the Associate exam. We made about six measures before he stopped me and said WTTE of "Thank you for helping me through this. I don't have to do it all any more."

I didn't even know that I was doing it.

YMMV but I hope you have this deleriously delicious experience some day.

j_alexandra – great comments and questions. Maybe I can add some clarity:

As to (i) what I meant about the Follow “finishing” but not “backleading”, I’m not explaining it well. I’m imagining a situation, for instance, a Double Reverse Spin, and as Lead maybe I lost of bit of balance on the second step. In that case, it would be really useful if the Follow didn’t actually follow my wobble, but instead continued and completed the proper degree of rotation of the DRS so that we don’t come to a grinding halt. “Finish” the DRS, but don’t backlead the start of the next figure. Give the Lead a chance to recover. I guess I don’t know where on the spectrum that falls with regard to “finishing” versus “backleading.”

As to (ii) and what foot the Follow may be on: I’ve run across Follows who get on the wrong foot because, for instance, they leave out the final step of the Tango Closed Promenade and look at me as though I’m the one who is adding in something extra (my Am Partner does that frequently, even with Pro). Or they don’t know that the figure I’m leading in Foxtrot ends off-phrase, so they take an extra step to fill out the measure (OK – to be fair, sometimes it doesn’t help that in the Grey Book the last step listed in a figure is the first step of the next figure….)

 

[Warren J. Dew]

As to (i) what I meant about the Follow “finishing” but not “backleading”, I’m not explaining it well. I’m imagining a situation, for instance, a Double Reverse Spin, and as Lead maybe I lost of bit of balance on the second step. In that case, it would be really useful if the Follow didn’t actually follow my wobble, but instead continued and completed the proper degree of rotation of the DRS so that we don’t come to a grinding halt. “Finish” the DRS, but don’t backlead the start of the next figure. Give the Lead a chance to recover. I guess I don’t know where on the spectrum that falls with regard to “finishing” versus “backleading.”

I'm not sure about j_alex, but to me that's solidly "backleading", and not the good kind. That's because my wobble is likely to be a lead to place the right foot in a slightly different place in preparation for brushing the left foot rather than crossing in front, as might be necessary for a proper noncheaty bombshell rather than the otherwise similar double reverse spin.

As to (ii) and what foot the Follow may be on: I’ve run across Follows who get on the wrong foot because, for instance, they leave out the final step of the Tango Closed Promenade and look at me as though I’m the one who is adding in something extra

I'm pretty sure my followers would not be able to leave out the foot closure without falling over, because properly led, they should not be able to get fully over the preceding right foot.

 

[j_alexandra]

I'm not sure about j_alex, but to me that's solidly "backleading", and not the good kind.

Beg to differ; it's exactly the good kind, as long as it's helpful and polite. Partnering, y'know? Someone's on the other side of your hands, and that someone can make your life miserable or help you along. IIRC, there's a thread on DF somewhere about what Follows do...

That's because my wobble is likely to be a lead to place the right foot in a slightly different place in preparation for brushing the left foot rather than crossing in front, as might be necessary for a proper noncheaty bombshell rather than the otherwise similar double reverse spin.

I'm guessing that Cal (and I) get wobbly on that second step of the DRS because it's a great place to get wobbly until you don't any more. Mismanaging my body weight in space and time makes me wobble. Doesn't matter what the figure is.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

Beg to differ; it's exactly the good kind, as long as it's helpful and polite. Partnering, y'know? Someone's on the other side of your hands, and that someone can make your life miserable or help you along. IIRC, there's a thread on DF somewhere about what Follows do...

What's helpful and polite to me is to follow my wobble, and not to "finish" the double reverse spin because at that point, it might not actually be a double reverse spin. If we're in a syllabus competition where it can only be a double reverse spin, sure, compensate for the wobble, but in social dancing or an open competition, assuming it is a double reverse spin is anticipation and thus not good following, as far as I'm concerned.

We may have to agree to disagree on this. I know of at least two threads on what follows do, and I agree more closely with dancepro on her Quantal Shift thread.

I'm guessing that Cal (and I) get wobbly on that second step of the DRS because it's a great place to get wobbly until you don't any more. Mismanaging my body weight in space and time makes me wobble. Doesn't matter what the figure is.

This is actually kind of illuminating. Followers are supposed to stay on their own balance in Standard and certainly manage their own body weight, and could in principle mismanage it.

However, as a leader in Standard, I don't manage my own body weight - I manage the body weight of the couple. That does involve managing the distribution of the body weight between the members of the couple, just as an individual might manage the distribution of the body weight between that individual's own feet. However, this is subtly different from managing my own body weight and the weight of my partner as separate things. When I do think about management of one body independent of the other body, it's much more likely to be my partner's body that I'm thinking about than my own.

During the man's second step of the double reverse spin, weight is taken by four different footfalls, the placement of at least three of which can be independently managed. I find three independent footfalls over two beats to be plenty to maintain better balance than in most figures. I've often been puzzled at why some leaders seem to find this figure difficult, but perhaps some of them aren't taking full advantage of their control over where the lady places her feet.

I will note, however, that leading the double reverse spin in court shoes, which you and Cal may occasionally do, may make it more difficult as well; with a smaller toe area on one's own foot, the adjustments one can make in partner's footfalls may be more limited.

 

[j_alexandra]

What's helpful and polite to me is to follow my wobble, and not to "finish" the double reverse spin because at that point, it might not actually be a double reverse spin. If we're in a syllabus competition where it can only be a double reverse spin, sure, compensate for the wobble, but in social dancing or an open competition, assuming it is a double reverse spin is anticipation and thus not good following, as far as I'm concerned.

The bombshell, iirc, is a double reverse spin followed by both partners doing a ronde. (If I am wrong, please please LMK where and how). In which case, um, yeah, I'd follow the DRS and wait for what comes next -- not anticipating. If you wobble on step 2, regardless of what happens after my steps 3&4, in my case, I would feel your wobble was throwing me off my steps 3&4. And that you were falling over. And that you needed my partnering skills to help you stabilize. Because taking care of the partner is something both partners do.

We may have to agree to disagree on this. I know of at least two threads on what follows do, and I agree more closely with dancepro on her Quantal Shift thread.

I remember Elisedance starting that thread, but dancepro was certainly prominent there.

This is actually kind of illuminating. Followers are supposed to stay on their own balance in Standard and certainly manage their own body weight, and could in principle mismanage it.

In principle? I'd say that many, many dancer errors stem from not being able to manage body weight. Lead or follow.

However, as a leader in Standard, I don't manage my own body weight - I manage the body weight of the couple. That does involve managing the distribution of the body weight between the members of the couple, just as an individual might manage the distribution of the body weight between that individual's own feet. However, this is subtly different from managing my own body weight and the weight of my partner as separate things. When I do think about management of one body independent of the other body, it's much more likely to be my partner's body that I'm thinking about than my own.

APPLAUSE!

During the lead's second step of the double reverse spin, weight is taken by four different footfalls, the placement of at least three of which can be independently managed.

I do not understand this statement.

I find three independent footfalls over two beats

two footfalls over three beats, I'd have thought: beat 1, step; beat 2, step; beat 3, close without weight

to be plenty to maintain better balance than in most figures. I've often been puzzled at why some leaders seem to find this figure difficult, but perhaps some of them aren't taking full advantage of their control over where the follow places her feet.

I find it much easier to lead when I have a follow to manage. Lacking a real live follow, I have to work with the Invisible Dance Partner, which is good but not *as* good. I have to imagine manipulating the follow's weight.