Standard Geekery

[fiesta0618]

Wind up is actually mostly storing rotational kinetic energy - you start rotating one part of the body with active use of the muscles while other part of the body isn't rotating yet, which in turn helps you to make that other part rotating as well.

That's a pretty unusual definition of windup!

In my experience, the typical definition of "windup" in Natural Turn is finding a commencement position where my torso is turned slightly to the left of my foot alignment. Basically, a preemptive anti-CBM.

For what you're describing, I would usually expect it to be discussed as differential rotation, or independent activation of various body blocks. Definitely not "windup," which is about preparation rather than execution.

To be fair, good windup (my definition) grants the dancer more space to use differential rotation (windup by your definition). So they do go hand-in-hand often enough.

 

[lucia_l]

Wind up is actually mostly storing rotational kinetic energy - you start rotating one part of the body with active use of the muscles while other part of the body isn't rotating yet,

If a portion of your body is already moving... that's part has kinetic energy of some sort. The stored portion is related to position of objects. This is definitional. You never "store kinetic energy". You can store energy-- but you can't store kinetic energy.

Of course, when you move body parts, you change positions. In some positions, energy is stored. Similar to in a spring mass system oscillating back and forth When the spring is fully extended or compressed, the spring-mass system has only potential energy. When the spring is not compressed or exended, the system has only kinetic energy. In other positions, the spring-mass system has both potential and kinetic energy. The potential is owing to the spring being partially compressed or extended. The kinetic is due to the mass moving-- albeit not at its fastest speed in the oscillation.

which in turn helps you to make that other part rotating as well. For instance you start doing waltz natural turn forward: you upper body starts rotating first, while your RF isn't rotating when you make 1st step. Then at some point while closing the feet, hips and feet end up turned more (backing LOD) than upper body. But most of that turn of the hips and feet came from core muscles actively working opposite side and very little from energy being stored into them during windup

You are describing a process where kinetic energy in one part of the body is transferred to another. That happens. But there is also potential energy stored -- whether it's 'a lot'? I don't know. What's "a lot"?

You brought up storing of energy. ("Charging is storing energy in the force within the connection." ) J_alexandra didn't know what you meant. I'm just explaining what "stored energy" means in physics. Stored energy is "potential energy"-- and that's related to the relative position of objects by definition. Kinetic energy is energy in motion-- also by definition.

I doubt this is helping anyone dance.

 

[vit]

In other instances it might either help or hinder me from doing something. If lots of teachers say push in some situation, it can't always be wrong. It also might still be counter productive at some stages in a students development.

Ok, I didn't say it's always wrong. But I think that many people, when pushing the floor, try to move the floor instead of moving themselves and leave the floor where it is ... as it won't move anyway ...

 

[vit]

In my experience, the typical definition of "windup" in Natural Turn is finding a commencement position where my torso is turned slightly to the left of my foot alignment. Basically, a preemptive anti-CBM.

Exactly that - In order to store more rotational kinetic energy, your body needs to turn more within the same time, which means - you must start with body turned more to the left. But you don't turn the feet as much to the left I hope

 

[Warren J. Dew]

From you a bit lengthy description I didn't get where you disagree with my sentence "but if you dance OP (or PP) step, hips are not turned towards the partner as much as shoulder area", though I agree with you that both angle of hips and shoulders to line of progress depend on individual couple (width of shoulders, hips etc)

It was in my final paragraph:

Since the ideal shoulder or rib cage angle is in principle different from the ideal hip angle, there may be couples where a larger shoulder angle is ideal. However, there may also be couples where the ideal is to angle the hips toward partner more than the shoulders. Angling them the same amount should be fine for syllabus dancers, and in my opinion the hip angle is more important for getting the “feel” of outside partner, and for leading it properly.

For some couples, it may make sense to angle the shoulders toward partner more than the hips. For other couples, it may make sense to angle the hips more. I think it’s best to start with the same angle - thus keeping the shoulders in line with the hips - and adjust for the couple’s body type details later.

I should also emphasize that even with beginners, it’s important to take some angle - trying to dance outside partner remaining square to partner is ugly and ungainly.

 

[vit]

But there is also potential energy stored -- whether it's 'a lot'? I don't know. What's "a lot"?

I think there is an easy test for it. Try doing some pushups (it may simulate action in WCS sugar push for instance, taken to extreme). Accumulate potential energy into muscles by lowering yourself to the ground imagining your arms are springs and see how much will that stored energy help you to return back to starting position as it would in case your arms were springs ....

Or use easier version - leaning similar way to nearest wall, so less force needed

 

[vit]

It was in my final paragraph:

For some couples, it may make sense to angle the shoulders toward partner more than the hips. For other couples, it may make sense to angle the hips more. I think it’s best to start with the same angle - thus keeping the shoulders in line with the hips - and adjust for the couple’s body type details later.

Thanks for clarification. Yes, we are in diasgreement here

 

[lucia_l]

I think there is an easy test for it. Try doing some pushups (it may simulate action in WCS sugar push for instance). Accumulate potential energy into muscles by lowering yourself to the ground imagining your arms are springs and see how much will that stored energy help you to return back to starting position as it would in case your arms were springs ....

I'm just telling you the definition of the terms "potential energy" and "kinetic energy".

"Potential energy - Wikipedia"
"In physics, potential energy is the energy of an object or system due to the body's position relative to other objects, or the configuration of its particles. The energy is equal to the work done against any restoring forces, such as gravity or those in a spring.

Kinetic energy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"In physics, the kinetic energy of an object is the form of energy that it possesses due to its motion.

You can transform kinetic energy into potential energy which is stored energy. But when you transform it, it is now potential energy and no longer kinetic energy

Using these terms as defined, your previous
"In order to store more rotational kinetic energy, your body needs to turn more within the same time, which means - you must start with body turned more to the left"

Is better said this way.

"In order to store more rotational potential energy, you must start with body turned more to the left. The energy stored in this position can then be transformed into rotational kinetic energy. Greater rotational kinetic energy means your body can turn faster-- that is turn more in the same amount of time."

It's pedantic. But if you want to understand when and where energy is "stored" and what is happening with energy transfers -- transformations-- it's best to be clear that the "stored/potential" energy and the "kinetic" energy of motion are forms of energy. It's fuzzy to think the "stored" energy is in the motion. The stored energy is reflected in the position and never in the motion.

 

[vit]

But if you want to understand when and where energy is "stored" and what is happening with energy transfers --

Believe me, I understand it well, we did it extensively on university of mechanical engineering, professor even sent me to a competition of university students where I ended 2nd in the country in mechanics Just used the wrong term about storing instead of having kinetic energy ....

But going further with it is just leading to dead end as I mentioned

 

[j_alexandra]

Well, pushing the floor is probably most abused dance teaching method teaching you precisely nothing ... teachers use it when they are out of other ideas how to fix your movement which doesn't look right

In fairness, the swimming-pool image has come up times without number, as have kitty-litter-scratching, moving through jello, go but don't go, stay but don't stay, etc.

It's in the doing.

 

[j_alexandra]

I don't think that's a fair characterization.

The first time I was introducing to the idea of charging a connection was from a Standard champion (although this is not the terminology that she used), and I had not even started studying Smooth at the time. I mentioned this in my post.

OK, then I have no idea how this works in Standard. You and I think about dance so differently; perhaps my difficulty with what you're saying is concept, perhaps it's nomenclature. But I'm sure you're right; five minutes of show and tell would sort it.

 

[j_alexandra]

FTypically the thickest part of the leg that needs to pass outside partner is closer to the knee than the hip,

HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA HAHAHAHAAA HAHAHHHAAAAAA hahahaaaAAAAAA
pardon me

yeah, not mine.

(thanks for the laugh)

 

[lucia_l]

HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA HAHAHAHAAA HAHAHHHAAAAAA hahahaaaAAAAAA
pardon me

yeah, not mine.

(thanks for the laugh)

The thickest part of my leg is definitely near the hip. Definitely. No amount of dancing education is going to change the fact that my body dimensions are my body dimensions. I sometimes sew. I've measured with a tape.

 

[j_alexandra]

I doubt this is helping anyone dance.

Preach.

 

[j_alexandra]

It was in my final paragraph:

and ungainly.

Extra points for "ungainly" says the lapsed English teacher