Do you habitually respond to a cue as soon as you recognize it, or do you wait some period of time or for some degree of reinforcement or "certainty"?
Standard Geekery
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Interesting. That was a carefully phrased question, wasn't it? "as soon as I recognize it" depends, of course, on the leader and the clarity of the lead, my familiarity with the lead's cues, whether things have gone haywire and we're trying to fix it, all kinds of things.
I cannot imagine waiting for some period of time or some degree of reinforcement. The certainty is built into the work; recognize/respond is the sine qua non, the base minimum, the requirement. So the answer has to be as soon as I recognize it. Habitually. Took a long time to learn that habit.
A related question: "what does 'respond' mean?"
I cannot imagine waiting for some period of time or some degree of reinforcement. The certainty is built into the work; recognize/respond is the sine qua non, the base minimum, the requirement. So the answer has to be as soon as I recognize it. Habitually. Took a long time to learn that habit.
A related question: "what does 'respond' mean?"
Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
Okay, so I learned to use the head snap with the link decades ago. None of my partners ever complained. Then a few years back, someone - maybe my sons’ Standard coach - objected vehemently to snapping links. At some point, the Gozzoli hold attracted my suspicion - maybe I was experimenting with my wife or something.
At any rate, further experimentation showed it was not a follower issue - they get some control over their power input, but it’s not a matter of how much violence they can individually withstand, as the crisp English/WDC style doesn’t impose any violence at all - and it was not a frame rigidity issue; it was purely a frame geometry issue. And your video confirms this as all the couples are using the old style English/WDC hold - note the fingertips of the gentlemen’s right hands at or across the ladies’ spines.
I don’t know the exact mechanism, but I believe in the old style compact hold, the gent’s right-left action just causes the lady’s head to rotate about the axis of her neck. In the wider hold, more like that used in the flight dances, the same action instead causes the lady’s head to wave back and forth, bending rather than rotating on the neck, causing uncomfortable or even painful whiplash.
Agreed regarding the action. I take it when my weight is rolling from the heel to the toe of my left foot, causing at least some pivot on the heel. We are in promenade by the time I place my right foot slightly to the side - knees turned in and touching.For me, the best moment for it (in progressive link) is about midway between my RF starts moving sideways and landing (and follower's LF the opposite). Important thing is - it's actually a double action - first to one, than to opposite side and follower doesn't have a time to react, and also, it makes an illusion of more more movement than actually happens. So it's not really "bam" but more "ta-da", just much faster (this might sound better to Alexandra as well)
I think it’s mostly that the detailed timing of the head snap when used in the twist turn is less obvious.
To get a “sudden movement” requires a certain amount of energy input. I remember when it was first explained to me as “just a head change” - while being demonstrated as a visually huge and even violent movement. Granted Hurley’s action is smaller, if just as crisp or more so.
Yeah. Not a gotcha, just want to make sure we're thinking & communicating along compatible lines.
To me, respond would mean take harmonious action. Which is itself a nebulous statement, and the definition of "harmonious" is wide open. So I apologize for the following wordiness, but hope you find it justified under the circumstances. I have two ways of approaching this idea, and I'll try both.
I conceive of the lead as three phases: commencement (I'm about to go that way in a moment), release (I am going that way right now), and reception (This is the precise spot I'm going; stay tuned for next direction).
On the follower's side, I think of the usual generic responses this way:
Commencement: I'm going that way in a moment --> OK, I'll prepare to go that way
Release: I'm going that way --> OK, me too. Let me know when/where we're stopping
Reception: This is the spot I'm going --> Roger, I'll stop there
I think of it this way because the follower has alternative, still correct, but "less cooperative" responses they can deploy in each phase. For example:
Commencement: I'm going that way in a moment --> No, that way is blocked. I will not poise to go that way.
Release: I'm going that way --> Not right now. I'm not fully prepared / there's a sudden obstacle.
Receive: This is the spot I'm going --> No, that's a risky spot. I will go further/less far for safety.
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In my view, the follower's response to Commencement is always immediate, as soon as recognized. Either the follower poises to move in that way, or they don't, and failure to do so--for any reason!--should be treated by the leader as a rejection, and they should cancel that intent and propose something different.
Reception response is also always immediate, because it sorta has to be. Of all three, it is the most split-second. Either the two dancers agree on where & when the next footfall is committed, or they don't; and it is incumbent upon the lead to react to whatever spot the follower committed to rather than the spot they envisioned.
Release, though, has a LOT of variability, even in the cooperative case. There are moments and reasons why the follower might delay their own "go". There are other moments and reasons (albeit fewer) why they might "jump the gun" and move first, "pulling" the leader through a motion.
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The "resistance" I spoke of earlier, that can be used to make Tango promenade openings snappy, is a case of cooperative movement where the follower utilizes a delayed release response. Immediate reaction to the commencement, delayed release, and immediate response to reception. Snap!
On the follower's side, I think of the usual generic responses this way:
Commencement: I'm going that way in a moment --> OK, I'll prepare to go that way
Release: I'm going that way --> OK, me too. Let me know when/where we're stopping
Reception: This is the spot I'm going --> Roger, I'll stop there
I think of it this way because the follower has alternative, still correct, but "less cooperative" responses they can deploy in each phase. For example:
Commencement: I'm going that way in a moment --> No, that way is blocked. I will not poise to go that way.
Release: I'm going that way --> Not right now. I'm not fully prepared / there's a sudden obstacle.
Receive: This is the spot I'm going --> No, that's a risky spot. I will go further/less far for safety.
**********
In my view, the follower's response to Commencement is always immediate, as soon as recognized. Either the follower poises to move in that way, or they don't, and failure to do so--for any reason!--should be treated by the leader as a rejection, and they should cancel that intent and propose something different.
Reception response is also always immediate, because it sorta has to be. Of all three, it is the most split-second. Either the two dancers agree on where & when the next footfall is committed, or they don't; and it is incumbent upon the lead to react to whatever spot the follower committed to rather than the spot they envisioned.
Release, though, has a LOT of variability, even in the cooperative case. There are moments and reasons why the follower might delay their own "go". There are other moments and reasons (albeit fewer) why they might "jump the gun" and move first, "pulling" the leader through a motion.
**********
The "resistance" I spoke of earlier, that can be used to make Tango promenade openings snappy, is a case of cooperative movement where the follower utilizes a delayed release response. Immediate reaction to the commencement, delayed release, and immediate response to reception. Snap!
This one is much less brainy and more feely, and I think overall more useful. But it is also a concept that is deployed ubiquitously in Latin/Rhythm/Smooth, but almost never in Standard, because it is easiest by far to study and utilize in hand-hold positions. As a result, the other three styles have a body of theory and language for the idea, but Standard mostly doesn't. Let's see how well it translates!
(ETA: Having said that, I was first introduced to this idea eight years ago in a private lesson with no less than Charlotte Jorgensen, Standardite extraordinaire. I simply was not well-equipped at the time to understand. The Smoothies and Latineers that visited the concept with me later had a much simpler context & language for showing & telling me.)
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The base context here is that the dancers' connection always has some baseline force (pressure or tension, 3-5 out of 10 in intensity, dancers' preference). Critically, it is also both parties' responsibility to maintain that baseline. So if the leader changes the force in the connection, the follower should respond in a way that equalizes back to baseline.
For example. In a pressure connection, if the force increases, the follower steps backward to reduce it. If the pressure reduces, they step forward to increase it. By contrast, under tension, an increase of force invites the follower to step forward and a reduction invites them to step backward.
That principle works fine for beginners and maybe intermediates, but all too soon another layer is needed. It turns out there are two different ways that the leader can change the force in the connection, and correspondingly two ways that the follower is expected to respond.
That difference hinges on whether the leader moves the connection point or not as they change force. Force changes in a moving connection invite movement, equalizing back to baseline; but force changes in an UNMOVING connection invite the follower to add reciprocal force, aka charging the connection.
For example. In a pressure connection, the leader can increase the connection force. If they do so while moving the connection point, this invites the follower to step backward, just as above. But if they do so without moving the connection, this invites the follower to compress into them, preparing some sort of explosion movement.
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If you follow this logic a little way, you'll notice that it is impossible for the follower to instantaneously detect if the connection point is moving or not. The sensation of pressure change will always come before the sensation of movement.
Therefore, the follower's initial reaction to a change of force in the connection should be to resist rather than equalize, as though this were a static line, and then change their response once they detect that the connection is in fact moving. This principle, applied skillfully, is the base cause of gooey elasticity in open Smooth positions as well as the snappiness of Latin & Rhythm actions.
But it turns out that principle also applies to Standard as well, with the same benefits--it is just that there are many fewer configurations of connection! To wit, there is a distinction between charging and moving, and a highly sophisticated couple will pass through a brief charging phase at the start of most movements.
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How does this apply to Promenade opening in International Tango specifically? Simply that the couple charges the connection more than they do at other moments or in other dances. This charge slightly delays the final release, and adds some visible snap to it.
In other words, the response is immediate, but initially resistive. It changes character after a certain threshold of telegraphed intent. Much easier felt than explained, I'm afraid!
(ETA: Having said that, I was first introduced to this idea eight years ago in a private lesson with no less than Charlotte Jorgensen, Standardite extraordinaire. I simply was not well-equipped at the time to understand. The Smoothies and Latineers that visited the concept with me later had a much simpler context & language for showing & telling me.)
**********
The base context here is that the dancers' connection always has some baseline force (pressure or tension, 3-5 out of 10 in intensity, dancers' preference). Critically, it is also both parties' responsibility to maintain that baseline. So if the leader changes the force in the connection, the follower should respond in a way that equalizes back to baseline.
For example. In a pressure connection, if the force increases, the follower steps backward to reduce it. If the pressure reduces, they step forward to increase it. By contrast, under tension, an increase of force invites the follower to step forward and a reduction invites them to step backward.
That principle works fine for beginners and maybe intermediates, but all too soon another layer is needed. It turns out there are two different ways that the leader can change the force in the connection, and correspondingly two ways that the follower is expected to respond.
That difference hinges on whether the leader moves the connection point or not as they change force. Force changes in a moving connection invite movement, equalizing back to baseline; but force changes in an UNMOVING connection invite the follower to add reciprocal force, aka charging the connection.
For example. In a pressure connection, the leader can increase the connection force. If they do so while moving the connection point, this invites the follower to step backward, just as above. But if they do so without moving the connection, this invites the follower to compress into them, preparing some sort of explosion movement.
**********
If you follow this logic a little way, you'll notice that it is impossible for the follower to instantaneously detect if the connection point is moving or not. The sensation of pressure change will always come before the sensation of movement.
Therefore, the follower's initial reaction to a change of force in the connection should be to resist rather than equalize, as though this were a static line, and then change their response once they detect that the connection is in fact moving. This principle, applied skillfully, is the base cause of gooey elasticity in open Smooth positions as well as the snappiness of Latin & Rhythm actions.
But it turns out that principle also applies to Standard as well, with the same benefits--it is just that there are many fewer configurations of connection! To wit, there is a distinction between charging and moving, and a highly sophisticated couple will pass through a brief charging phase at the start of most movements.
***********
How does this apply to Promenade opening in International Tango specifically? Simply that the couple charges the connection more than they do at other moments or in other dances. This charge slightly delays the final release, and adds some visible snap to it.
In other words, the response is immediate, but initially resistive. It changes character after a certain threshold of telegraphed intent. Much easier felt than explained, I'm afraid!
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Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
Absolutely. On the other hand, Joe Jenkins used to take a sudden head action on almost every step, with excellent staccato results. Thus why I did the investigation mentioned in my reply to Vit above regarding just what does and does not cause the whiplash, so I could avoid it while retaining the crispness.
Again as mentioned above, I take the right-left head snap as I take my weight onto my left foot in the forward step. This results in the crispest upper body action while veering my left knee inward to “capture” the lady’s knee. The -left part of the head snap leads the actual turn to promenade.
My examination led to conclusions similar to Vit’s. Remember I’m the guy who agrees with Tolmeyer’s the that women hear faster than men - but I think their reaction times are still human.
I was doing head snap in the past as well, but not with double action, as nobody taught me how to do it exactly; didn't feel ok that way ...
I thought it was about wider frame. But Mirko is also holding right arm with fingers across ladies spine, even in recent videos, so I'm not getting what's the difference.
Anne is amazing in matching his wild dancing
Yeah, exact mechanism is surely quite complex. Important thing is - neck isn't attached to the middle of the head, but towards the back of the head, so sideways movement should naturally turn the head facing against the direction of acceleration. Also, when I do this, I also slightly rotate frame to left and then to right as I find it more natural (and also is a continuation of CBMP on 1st step), which also has some influence. And probably some other things ...
Also, body of the lady eventually learns to keep some muscles more engaged, so that head doesn't bend forward/backward/sideways that much under forces when dancing, but can still rotate more freely
Yeah, this is a tricky point. I push of most of my LF (though more of heel and inner edge) which probably isn't nicest way / exactly by the book, but I've seen various top dancers doing similar so I don't care. I just want to maximize my movement here and minimize shifting her sideways with my arms
I was also taught to do it SQQSQQ. And Smooth Guy had to make more space for me than he was used to (he was a standard dancer who learned American more recently)
Perhaps, that's a nuance of dancing Smooth vs Stanadard?
[Sorry, I see (4 pages later) that I'm very late to the party...it's been a hectic work season.]
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BTW, Hurley's lecture seems to be from '92, as indicated on a DVD
nicedancing.com
In Spanish drag at pos 19:00 into the video, there are only 4 frames between impulse to one and to other side, which is 0.16s (video is 25 fps) - which is just slightly less than reaction time to the second stimulus according to a diagram in WDSF book
Anthony Hurley - Blackpool Congress (Package)
This 9-video package containing THE WORLD’S BEST LECTURES with Anthony Hurley. The lectures are a live recording of the event that took place in Winter Gardens, Blackpool Rhythm/Style: Ballroom Dancer (Instructor): Anthony Hurley Level of Dance: Intermediate/Advanced Running time: Average 30...
nicedancing.com
In Spanish drag at pos 19:00 into the video, there are only 4 frames between impulse to one and to other side, which is 0.16s (video is 25 fps) - which is just slightly less than reaction time to the second stimulus according to a diagram in WDSF book
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Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
Maybe it is more about the width and shape of the man’s arm line. I think there was a previous thread a few years back discussing this. Here’s a video from when he was dancing with Edita - his elbow to elbow line is almost straight across his back, facilitating a very legato movement across the floor:
Basic Tango Mirko Gozzoli & Edita Daniute
We offer now online private Dance Lessons with Szymon Kalinowski & Grazyna GrabickaIf you are Interested email us: szymok@yahoo.com
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True, but there aren’t any crisp head actions happening here as there were in her video with Hurley.
... except at 0:19, 0:24, repeated 2 times ... these are both double actions done within about 5 frames in 30 fps video which is 0.17s, marginally slower than Hurley (hard to say accurately anyway, can be a frame more or less in both cases), but twice the volume ... but no double action in progressive link
But I never liked Edita dancing with him with contact point that low; I like lady doing big shape, but not this way
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Gentlemen: watch her respond to him and tell me again about how the follow's neurons can't transmit fast enough. Go ahead. I'll wait.
I have a feeling what you guys mean is "most follows can't do it" and/or "I've never encountered a follow who can do it." That's different from a blanket statement of "follow neurons can't transmit fast enough."
Empirical evidence dictates that follows *can* and *do* respond fast enough.
Could be. I never encountered Natural Twist Turn at all as a Smoothie, but I started the style late and so spent much less time in Syllabus.
(Editorially, I would add that I don't think Natural Twist Turn is a great move for Smooth. To me, it is a pattern that aims at maximizing the small canvas of Standard. Smoothies have a lot more options, and don't need to do anything so fiddly in pursuit of that aesthetic effect. Natural Cross-Body Lead, for example)
What is surprising to me is that the SQQQQS version is showing up so frequently in the Standard crowd, because it is not the basic version that appears in the gray bible. Apparently the "rebellion" I grew up with has a lot of adherents!
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Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
I was going to respond to Vit that I find her actions in response to Mirko’s head snaps less than crisp. Given they are fine in the Anthony Hurley video, though, I don’t think this is a problem with Anne.
I think we are still talking about different things. Her following was excellent despite his dancing was maybe a bit forced so to say ...
It's just about sudden movements/head snaps, which actually involve mostly upper body / head, that are too fast to be actively followed, because obviously there was some research showing that human reaction isn't that fast, so for a brief time (several tenths of a second) it happens without brain being involved
So while there are not that many followers that would follow him as good, there are much more followers that would do those head snaps - even my partner can do them ... in the meantime I found a demo of tango choreography, with my ex pro teacher dancing with one of the followers from our hobby group. While her dancing/following wasn't nearly as good as Anne's (obviously a huge difference), head snaps (that he, as I mentioned, didn't teach at all, but danced with her anyway) were quite ok ...
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Well, as we age, muscles unfortunately age as well. She was 30+ years younger on the video with Hurley. It is a lot. She did excellent with Mirko for her age .... he should have danced a bit less energetic ....