Step projection - Proyección del paso

Oh boy, whatever they're doing is making me dizzy. Nothing about it looks attractive from beginning to end.

;)

Agreed - it is really strange, isn't it? But i think we all have seen/ most of us have lead the standard version of the calesita, where lowering the follower leads to the free leg extending and creating a long line. And what is in it for the follower when sticking out the leg that way? it does not make it more stable, it makes it more difficult and slower to recover, it slows down the turn and makes playing with the speed more difficult, it takes away options from both the entry and exit. So this version is probably superior from a dance-not-watch perspective.....
 
Agreed - it is really strange, isn't it? But i think we all have seen/ most of us have lead the standard version of the calesita, where lowering the follower leads to the free leg extending and creating a long line.
Very strange. The dancing was so frenetic that I didn't even pay attention to the calesita or notice it as one. I tend not to lead them. But yes, reviewing the footage, it's a bizarre calesita. Have no idea if it's more stable or less stable. Maybe it was something they created, their "choreography" so to speak. Any idea when this was filmed? The video quality is horrendous.
 
Any idea when this was filmed? The video quality is horrendous.
No idea - based on when he was still dancing i would assume latest mid-80's? I stumbled over this one because of the discussion in another thread about what the tango of dancers who were big in the golden age in BA looked like.
 
I agree with this. There is a linkage between step width and amount of projection: The more projection, the more leg extension. The step width is predetermined by the downward movement of the torso. Reversely, projecting the torso upwards will lead to small or double steps.

You can follow how the torso movement determines the leg extension in Chrisa Assis' excellent video "Argentine Tango Technique - Balance, Posture, and Projections" from 2:06 on.

I fully agree about the up/down levels defining the step length but I am anchoring it to the abrazo.

When we go into the abrazo we actually negotiate about abrazo level for the normal step length for our tanda.
For short steps we rise that abrazo by going up to toes or pressing the heels to the floor, projecting torso.
Long steps by lowering the abrazo for both.

By tilting the abrazo you get the possibilities to create different step lengths for leader and follower.
When you keep it normal, start level for the leader but rise the follower side then the normal leader steps are combined with short follower steps.
Leader/follower planeos can be created by lowering the planeo-persons side only; initiating the projection
 
I find it interesting that only few leaders here on the forum lead by projection. So the following vid can be a good introduction to this technique.


The guy is making enormous side steps (like in the performance).
He makes sidestep like two sidesteps in social tango.
And he is falling into a back step. He needs to be more on the front leg when going backwards.
 
The guy is making enormous side steps (like in the performance).
He makes sidestep like two sidesteps in social tango.
And he is falling into a back step. He needs to be more on the front leg when going backwards.
Can we really interpret anything from someone
who demonstrates what he presumably does with
a partner but without one? I would argue not!

As ever this technique has nothing relevant for
improvised social partner tango dancing.
 
I find it interesting that only few leaders here on the forum lead by projection. So the following vid can be a good introduction to this technique.

Basically, he's telling us to use the floor as much as possible and that the projection comes from there. Didn't catch all the dialog though, I have to listen again. That's not exactly unique.
 
The guy is making enormous side steps (like in the performance).
He makes sidestep like two sidesteps in social tango.
And he is falling into a back step. He needs to be more on the front leg when going backwards.
Yes, very large steps. Either for the purpose of the demonstration or, as if it were for a performance rather than a social dance.
 
Why should social tango be the aim, Mladenac? This vid is about technique, and social tango only is one way to realize this technique.
It's about an entirely different technique
mostly inexplicable to social tango although
some people will always insist otherwise . .
 
Well, I for one disagree with your rather alienating dichotomy. The music of traditional tango (Golden Age music) is far from restrained and, I would add, highly motivating for those who dance tango. I also have never found tango nuevo dancers to be all that expressive, no matter how much room they have on the floor.
Whatever they lack in “expressiveness”, they make up in having fun. I’m being a little ironic. I do go “upstairs” and watch them with respect and return downstairs to dance the Golden Age. Someday, I’ll stay upstairs (like having an affair) and not regret it in the least, the reason I haven’t yet, is because I’m not up to their standards.
 
I find it interesting that only few leaders here on the forum lead by projection. So the following vid can be a good introduction to this technique.

To walk elegantly, effortlessly, feel comfortable and aesthetically look good, while dancing in an embrace, I think is the holy grail that all the tango dancers aspire to.

TL;DR - Use of the term ‘projection’ by the instructors is unfortunate. I think most good dancers do use what is implied by ‘projection’. They may not choose to call it as that. The terminology and its semantics don’t do justice to the elements that need to come together biomechanically. Neither the dancers nor instructors are bio-mechanical experts. It is very difficult to both describe and agree on the combination of all the bio-mechanical aspects that results in the end-effect the so called ‘projection’ is meant to achieve. Neither are most people capable of accurately describing or identifying their own motion or how they are able to produce it.

I haven’t followed the thread yet to know others’ opinion. Using the quoted as a launching pad to explain my opinion based on my personal experience. You can skip the essay below :)

I have taken the walking technique classes from more than half a dozen instructors in the past 10 years. A few from very experienced old dancers, a couple from very well known acclaimed instructors and a couple of them with the younger mundial championship winners. One example of a tanguero whose social dancing style of walking I like is Ricardo Vidort. There are others.

Slightly off tangent, on the other hot topic. I have followed drills and exercises from both types of instructors. The ones who insist on the toe first landing and the ones who insist on the heel first landing. I can happily do either as a drill. I have no religion on it. I can dance exclusively using either landing only all night. I choose to use both. For certain type of music passages or in a crowded ronda which requires me to take shorter steps, I go toe first. For longer steps and slower music I use heel first. My split is probably 70:30 in favour of heel landing. I do what works and feels comfortable for both me and the follower.

As I mentioned, I’ve taken workshops and classes on the walking technique from more than a few instructors. Things that work in the class settings sometimes didn’t work when dancing in the milonga. Some of it due to my wrong application, some of it simply not socially transferable in dancing with a wide variety of partners. When trying to dance the same way as the stepping during the drills, things can get slightly disconnected when dancing in the milonga. Regarding their explanation of ‘projection’ part in the walking technique I split it 70:30. All of them in my interpretation, meant to convey the same for the 70% of the part. Though they may say it in different ways, making it appear they were saying different things. The remaining 30% was indeed emphasis on something different (bio-mechanically). Some aspects worked for me. Some didn’t. Both in the class settings and in dancing at the milongas.

I think I finally got to a happy place. Is there a room for improvement. Always. For now I am able to make the technique my own. It is what works for me, it is what I feel comfortable with, it doesn’t tire me or feels like as slog or causes strain in the back. When a follower compliments or asks if I am an instructor, I know I danced that tanda well enough for her. I spent hours watching dancers who look good and their steps have a quality of unrushed elegance. None of them give any illusion of falling in to the step. I have also watched for hours those whose walking I felt lacked something. Needless to say they are all displaying some degree of musicality in their dancing. That is an exercise to tease out what is working for them through observation.

Fatigue and lack of dance time certainly degrades the ability and skill. I remember a few months back, I was dancing after a gap of two or three months. The follower had pretty decent skills and after the tanda was over asked if she could make a suggestion. I said sure. She meant to say that my rise and fall was too pronounced though she didn’t word it that way. She was right. Part of it was because I felt she required more ‘projection’ and part of it was that I was not engaging properly. Being grounded and pushing off the ground is important. Equally important is how you do it. How much weight you put on the standing leg and how do you time the weight transfer to the free leg. This is the part that most instructors are not able to articulate. I had to figure it out by trying it out various ways. No one way works in all the situations, At the end it is a fine judgement. Similar to turning when riding a bike, how much you turn the handle vs how much you lean, in the direction of the turn. how much the road banks, how it is paved, etc. Depends on how fast or slow your speed is, how narrow or wide the turning radius required.

All of the instructors are right to an extent. You do need to be self aware of how your body is moving and how your partner reacts to it. Then you calibrate to smoothen it out. Whether you are chest forward lean-in type lead-with-chest dancer or maintain-your-axis dance with the core type salon dancer, your mechanics are similar, If you are a good And competent. You may think you are leading/following with the ‘chest’, but you are not. You may think you are not using/responding to the ‘projection’, but you are. You still have to have a good frame. You still need to engage your ’core’ in a relaxed fashion. Nice to have a pleasing posture. The style you dance doesn’t change the common elements required to be a good competent partner dancer.
 
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I find it interesting that only few leaders here on the forum lead by projection.

TL;DR - Use of the term ‘projection’ by the instructors is unfortunate. I think most good dancers do use what is implied by ‘projection’. They may not choose to call it as that. The terminology and its semantics don’t do justice to the elements that need to come together biomechanically.

I think i agree with Bailango here - even people who don't talk about projection, and who don't use the specific (semantic?) framework of the follower extending their leg ahead of time use the same biomechanics. I tend to call it the chain "cadena" (i originally wanted to call it stacking, like the yoga people do, but stacking "apilado" is already used in tango ). In the end all movement theories agree that for movement we need to push off something, and keep our body in a shape where forces are aligned with bones and big muscles. People tall about it differently - "the head floating up - the energy goes up" "pushing into the ground - the energy goes down" "lower your body" "stand tall" "don't fall into the step" "don't extend only your leg, move onto the new base". And the language emphasizes some links in that chain - probably what needs correcting most urgently at the moment - but the whole chain has to be there for movement to actually work. This doesn't mean that all the parts have to be equally emphasized - a lot of tango vocabulary is in my opinion specific aspects of good technique amplified and exaggerated - but that all of them are present in some form. I think everybody leads by projection if we mean by projection "movement starts from the standing leg". How this concept is specifically expressed will vary quite a bit.

P.S. It is a lot less fun to talk technique when not actually dancing, isn't it? I used to spend at least some time every week when practicing with my partner - and sometimes when dancing at the milongas, too - playing with ideas and concepts that did come from discussions here. Now doing only imaginary tangos is not really satisfying.
 
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This doesn't mean that all the parts have to be equally emphasized - a lot of tango vocabulary is in my opinion specific aspects of good technique amplified and exaggerated - but that all of them are present in some form. I think everybody leads by projection if we mean by projection "movement starts from the standing leg". How this concept is specifically expressed will vary quite a bit.
That's a big "if" in this context. You seem to be subscribing
to Humpty Dumpty's argument:
"words can mean whatever I want them to mean"

Changing the meaning of step projection to suit your own view
seems to me to negate the whole point of any discussion.
And what you say is not step projection to me.

Step projection is leading with the foot and thus leg.
I lead with my body and, yes, my standing leg is engaged,
obviously.
 

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