Step projection - Proyección del paso

[ArbeeNYC]

Out of interest, are you able to briefly categorize her recommended posture and stance for men and your alternative viewpoint?

As I said, I am of two minds, which is that I'm not sure I fully agree (or disagree) with her teaching. However, to summarize, there were two key takeaways:

First, less is more. Don't do too much in the way of footwork, just listen to the music (which can be simple or complex, however). She felt that everyone in the class (including some who were close to beginners) was trying to do too much, too many "steps" and everyone needed to simplify. That was good counsel.

Second (and this addresses your question), our posture (stance) should be absolutely natural and relaxed. She is opposed to the high chest posture that is often taught in tango (and which I was taught) and insists that we stand casually as if "we were waiting in line at the supermarket". (But, even waiting in line, I stand rather upright and don't slouch.) She demonstrated by standing with one leg out a bit, very casual. And following that, that our movements should follow from that stance. I guess her stance is more solar plexus-to-solar plexus than heart-to-heart, maybe even lower in her case (which doesn't allow much room for being apilado, of course).

And Third, she wanted much more energetic use of the hands, which surprised me, and felt that we needed to convey energy through our hands and help guide our partner through them. This is also in sharp contrast to what every other teacher has taught me. (One of whom, a woman, said she would bite my head off if I moved my left arm during a milonga.)

That's about what I recall. I didn't entirely change my posture, but I did learn to be far more relaxed and natural when dancing, which is key to good tango in my opinion. Unless you're on stage that is. The hand thing is a bit cloudier. My left arm and hand remain stable and stationary, I'm not changing that. Right hand? Yeah, a bit more flexible but not too much. Hope that answers your question.

 

[opendoor]

And back to topic, does she demand projection?

 

[ArbeeNYC]

And back to topic, does she demand projection?

No. Never raised the subject. At least not in the workshop I attended.

 

[JohnEm]

As I said, I am of two minds, which is that I'm not sure I fully agree (or disagree) with her teaching. However, to summarize, there were two key takeaways:

First, less is more. Don't do too much in the way of footwork, just listen to the music (which can be simple or complex, however). She felt that everyone in the class (including some who were close to beginners) was trying to do too much, too many "steps" and everyone needed to simplify. That was good counsel.

Thanks for such a prompt response. I hope that my comments are helpful.

Second (and this addresses your question), our posture (stance) should be absolutely natural and relaxed. She is opposed to the high chest posture that is often taught in tango (and which I was taught) and insists that we stand casually as if "we were waiting in line at the supermarket". (But, even waiting in line, I stand rather upright and don't slouch.) She demonstrated by standing with one leg out a bit, very casual. And following that, that our movements should follow from that stance. I guess her stance is more solar plexus-to-solar plexus than heart-to-heart, maybe even lower in her case (which doesn't allow much room for being apilado, of course).

This seems to have become a sort of modern standard from the teaching women, I've seen something similar from Monica Paz who insisted on lower chest to abdomen contact and has the same odd s-shape stance as Susana Miller. The fact is I suppose is that sedentary people today do slouch in the supermarket queue but the result is a lack of presence when dancing. Real dancers don't slouch!

I too was taught the high chest posture which I found impossible to maintain while actually dancing and it took me years to find the way of becoming present, unforced, relaxed, natural and connected at the high chest. Just telling people as you, I and many others, were told is not enough. They should teach how but my only possible conclusion is that they don't actually know.

Even more confusing is the infamous advice to be up from the waist and take the pelvis down, an anatomical impossibility, but that is a different issue.

I am believer in watching the people we are thinking of learning from, which is easy today with YouTube, and I don't want to dance with a partner like this:

Even worse, there's no connection with the music.

And Third, she wanted much more energetic use of the hands, which surprised me, and felt that we needed to convey energy through our hands and help guide our partner through them. This is also in sharp contrast to what every other teacher has taught me. (One of whom, a woman, said she would bite my head off if I moved my left arm during a milonga.)

Not only do I think that the left hand has no function except to be there for the safety of your partner, I think it should be available yet relaxed but I don't see many dancing in that way. If you avoid using it, the lead has to come from the chest and eventually the dance changes for the better.

That's about what I recall. I didn't entirely change my posture, but I did learn to be far more relaxed and natural when dancing, which is key to good tango in my opinion. Unless you're on stage that is. The hand thing is a bit cloudier. My left arm and hand remain stable and stationary, I'm not changing that. Right hand? Yeah, a bit more flexible but not too much. Hope that answers your question.

My right hand normally doesn't change position with most partners and my left isn't up in the air as in the video.

Thanks for your clear explanation, very interesting and confirms my worst fears!

 

[JohnEm]

And back to topic, does she demand projection?

See the video I posted - I assume that what she is doing amounts to step projection?

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I am believer in watching the people we are thinking of learning from, which is easy today with YouTube, and I don't want to dance with a partner like this:

The video is so strange. The one thing that turns me off and would make me question her advice is that I wouldn't want to lead like that or look like that while dancing. I'm not sure what she's doing but it doesn't look like fun. Obviously, Miller has been dancing far longer than I have and has a direct connection to the tradition, but there's something about the way she's synthesized the tradition that I question. I mean, she danced with Vidort (and others) and Vidort didn't move like that.

 

[Numawan]

I don’t like it either. And I don’t see much musicality in that dance.

 

[Steve Pastor]

I also wouldn't want to dance with Eva, based on that demo.
I looked for Alex Krebs with Miller, didn't see anything (although I took a lesson from her at Alex's Tango Berretin - but that was before everyone had a camera in their pocket).
So, here is Miller with Robert Hauk, who has been teaching here in Portland for a number of years, and was one of her followers back in the daysays (and his web site still states this.)
I THINK I approach the music a lot like Robert does, but I'm pretty sure my posture is better, even though I'm about as tall as he is.

And here I again thank Steven Payne and Skippy Blair for helping me acheive better posture.

The external occipital protuberance is a raised area on the midline of the occipital bone where the posterior wall meets the base of the skull. Learn to Press this area back and note the effect on your posture.

And, I will once again pull out my Miller story wherein she noticed my bum, and proclaimed in front of the entire class that I will have back problems when I get "older" due to my posture.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I THINK I approach the music a lot like Robert does, but I'm pretty sure my posture is better, even though I'm about as tall as he is.

Interesting. Not wild about his posture either (maybe because he's taller than she is and is trying to compensate?) but I like his approach to the music, too, but I'd probably step up the pace a bit. I like her better as a follower than a leader, although here, too, she has a strange way of lifting up her feet and stepping. Of course, she's not a performer, she's a social dancer, so, in all fairness, we should focus more on her wisdom and teaching than her public performances.

 

[Steve Pastor]

I noticed the picking up her feet thing, too. I'm going to guess that this was a "phase" she was going through. I know I'll pick up a step or series of steps, like some things I saw at the performance the other night, and add them to the things I do regularly on the floor. Then eventually they are replaced by other current "favorite" things.
Agree about being more lively with that music. I was also thinking that I would use the very brief pauses more often than he does here.

 

[dchester]

I am believer in watching the people we are thinking of learning from, which is easy today with YouTube, and I don't want to dance with a partner like this:

Even worse, there's no connection with the music.

To me, this video is bad on many levels.

 

[JohnEm]

I THINK I approach the music a lot like Robert does, but I'm pretty sure my posture is better, even though I'm about as tall as he is.

And here I again thank Steven Payne and Skippy Blair for helping me acheive better posture.

The external occipital protuberance is a raised area on the midline of the occipital bone where the posterior wall meets the base of the skull. Learn to Press this area back and note the effect on your posture.

You know I'm skeptical about this advice. The idea that we can just push a button to sort out our posture is obviously appealing but it's very different doing that awkward reach yourself compared to Skippy coming along and giving it an unexpected press. This has no long term effect unless it makes you feel as if you should do something much more fundamental about it. And that means targeted exercise with the aim being to be able to lift the chest up and forward simultaneously taking the head back. If you have the body control and feel to do that then you are well on the way. But you then need to make it your normal posture.

 

[opendoor]

...does she demand projection?

See the video I posted - I assume that what she is doing amounts to step projection?

Agreed. Quite obviously Eva Garlez´ lead is heavily built on projection.
Another question, when avoiding projection for all the world, how can you prevent to fall right into the next step. You know projection also means the possibility of retraction just before all the weight finally has shifted. Without projection the walk would be clumsy or jerky, but not fluently.

 

[opendoor]

...does she demand projection?

No. Never raised the subject. At least not in the workshop I attended.

So I wonder if she knows about the projection thing, at all? I found that this concept is subject of discussion rather in academic or european circles.
(Or does she assume that projection is a basic common property for all us dancers?)

 

[JohnEm]

Agreed. Quite obviously Eva Garlez´ lead is heavily built on projection.

No, the follower is Eva Garlez - the video is of Susana Miller leading. I used this video because the conversation had become one of Susana teaching leaders, and I always advocate seeing how people dance before you learn from them. I have a predisposition against learning from women anyay, most can describe what they want to feel but have no idea what the physical needs are to lead. Here we have Susana Miller leading (with step projection!) but she isn't leading as a man would; she doesn't have the physicality. From my viewpoint, there's no point in learning from her.

Another question, when avoiding projection for all the world, how can you prevent to fall right into the next step. You know projection also means the possibility of retraction just before all the weight finally has shifted. Without projection the walk would be clumsy or jerky, but not fluently.

Not true at all. This "fall onto the foot" was an observation of what it looked like to Rick McGarrey but watch his walking videos and it's was not what he did. On this point tangoandchaos is thoroughly misleading. I don't step project, I delay the foot, and extend the period on one foot. I look for partners who move similarly from axis to axis (from one position of balance to the next) rather than from one two footed position to the next as in fact Susana Miller herself dances.

When I started doing this as a purposeful objective I used to drive the foot into the floor, to ensure that it didn't float above it before landing, which resulted in a reaction through my body which my partner could feel as bump or even a jump but better that than so-called falling on the foot. The foot (and leg) is in fact
kinetically arriving under the weight of the weight as it arrives to produce the shortest possible weight transfer time. Some people in other dances call this landing a weighted foot but they never describe how to do it by delaying the actual landing in relation to the body. The relationship to the beat of the music is still on the beat but it does alter the position of the body in relation to the beat. It provides what is the Holy Grail of Tango to some - the ability to acknowledge the second beat by collecting or centering on it and increasing the time between the steps which was my goal amongst other things.

Now the comments I receive is how my dance is smooth and bump free but it takes time and perseverance. So, once again, it is not falling onto the foot but the foot dynamically arriving on the floor to meet the arriving body weight. It's all down to timing. On the contrary to your conclusion this method of dancing improves togetherness and connection between the partners, and a feeling of dancing as one, plus increases the musicality opportunities in the moment.