Stop thinking and just dance....

[Brummbaer]

in case it's say 90%+ follower's fault.

But is it 'fault' or 'opportunity'? With choreo I'd agree with 'fault' (most times). Another extreme is the 'hyperactive follower' who finds an opportunity for an 'adorno' (if sorts) everywhere (leader only required for support!). There's a sliding scale, but when it all fits, it's great

 

[vit]

But is it 'fault' or 'opportunity'? With choreo I'd agree with 'fault' (most times). Another extreme is the 'hyperactive follower' who finds an opportunity for an 'adorno' (if sorts) everywhere (leader only required for support!). There's a sliding scale, but when it all fits, it's great

Well, depending on circumstances. For instance in WCS leading is a kind of suggestion lots of the time, so follower can do it various ways depending on skills. But in BR standard, on the other side, follower doesn't have many options/opportunities ...

 

[j_alexandra]

I wonder if, with a good pro and strong lead/follow skills, it could be used to get the basics of a new shape into muscle memory? e.g., the pro leads the same new shape or new transition repeatedly until it feels natural?

This

During rounds with a competent leader leading

FTFY

it could make sense for certain issues where you probably will do that thing that Zen-Body talks about, naturally adapt after repetition to make the movements more natural.

this this this

When do the followers who get that advice during practice get it?

Whenever I fall out of it.

 

[joy]

I don't think as a ballroom follow, and it's my favorite part of dancing ballroom.

West Coast in competitions, I have to think more and it's my least favorite part, I have to work harder to get myself good enough so that I don't have to think.

In general in all dance forms you just want to be so good that the intellectual part is quiet so you can just feel and move to the music, and express yourself. Otherwise it's just technique.

 

[raindance]

This is lovely for an advanced follow to get to that point that Joy described when she dances ballroom! Great that she can enjoy that. But most advanced follows got there by a lot of thinking, technique drills and theory, and very conscious practice along they way.

Otherwise a champion ballroom leader could pick anyone out of the crowd and the newbie follower could dance with them as though they were a champion couple, not a champion dancing with a newbie. The champ (or otherwise very good) leader can certainly get a newbie through some basics better than an inexperienced leader, even without the newbie thinking much ... but the newbie will still look like a newbie dancer, with newbie posture, and all sorts of technical issues (steps too big or too small, poor shaping, poor timing , etc etc etc).

One of our coaches once said she didn't think in standard finals at Blackpool, she just "just followed" without thinking ... but she got there through years of technical practice and a lot of partnering experience, plus a superb leader that she'd danced with for years dancing with her in the finals. Unfortunately we were bronze ams, and my am partner heard that, and thought "if I could just get raindance to stop thinking so much, we'd be zooming around like Blackpool finalists!" when in reality of course we both had a lot of work to do on much more mundane technique. And of course most of the coaching session was on all those technical details we needed to think about at the time, with lots of work to get our brains and bodies to try to understand what was needed to help us improve to the next stage. (And even if either of us were dancing pro am with a Blackpool finalist, and managed to "not think" in whatever way was appropriate, we still would have looked like bronze dancers dancing with Blackpool finalists at the time. We'd have looked better than dancing with each other, of course.)

 

[fiesta0618]

This is lovely for an advanced follow to get to that point that Joy described when she dances ballroom! Great that she can enjoy that. But most advanced follows got there by a lot of thinking, technique drills and theory, and very conscious practice along they way.

It seems to me that this is the issue that lies at the heart of the collective skepticism for the idea of "don't think." It is only applicable when you already have some amount of muscle memory or other instinct to rely on. But how does that instinct get built in the first place? A boatload of thinking! Bit of a contradiction there, innit?

Spoiler: Further thoughts collapsed because I'm not a follower and thus only a hanger-on in this thread

I would attribute most of this apparent contradiction to sloppy pedagogy. Coaches are seldom clear about drawing lines between instances of now is the time we think, in order to build muscle memory and now we will put aside thoughts and utilize whatever muscle memory we have to practice partnership.

(For the record, it is also a problem for *leaders* to be too caught up in technical thinking when it is time to work on partnership. This is not an an entirely follower-specific challenge.)

To compound that problem, lots of coaches aren't particularly good at guiding students into practice habits that develop muscle memory effectively. And for the case of Pro-Am, it's exacerbated even further for structural and monetary reasons, because most muscle-memory work is individual and lengthy, but it can feel super wasteful to spend valuable paid time with a pro without actually dancing with them!

One of the major barriers my amateur partnerships have had to overcome is figuring out effective practice methods to build up our individual muscle memory so that we don't get lost in technical sauce when it comes time to work on partnership. Our coaches did an only okay-ish job giving guidance on how to do that. In the end, we had to draw upon practice methods we learned from playing music and participating in other high-skill activities. We did a lot of exasperated muddling-through before that!

TL;DR: Even if you are an ardent believer in the "don't think" dance method, it cannot be treated as a universal truth. It has a time and place (just as dancing with thought has a time and place), and it is only possible after a lot of thinking work has already been done.

But I don't think those aspects of "don't think" are pretty much ever communicated clearly. Including in this little discussion about it!

 

[Pryn]

I wonder if, with a good pro and strong lead/follow skills, it could be used to get the basics of a new shape into muscle memory? e.g., the pro leads the same new shape or new transition repeatedly until it feels natural?

I would love this approach to be used more!!! I occasionally request it.

However, none of my instructors truly have the patience for it. They like to teach the shape/figure and tell me to work on it for homework. (To be fair, they know that I will most likely do the homework. But, I think I'd get it faster if they just repeated it until it felt natural.)

Magic Pro gets bored after the 2nd time. I'm lucky if can't get him to repeat anything a 3rd time.

Devil's Advocate to my own thoughts: I wouldn't be as aware of what I was doing as opposed having to hash it out/struggle at home to recreate it, so most likely I'd still have a hard time being able to do it solo.

And for the case of Pro-Am, it's exacerbated even further for structural and monetary reasons, because most muscle-memory work is individual and lengthy, but it can feel super wasteful to spend valuable paid time with a pro without actually dancing with them!

Good point. It could be perceived as a wasting money doing the same thing over-and-over again.

There's a balance needed.

 

[HappyLilac]

Interesting … when I get the correction to stop thinking it’s usually when I’m making a concentrating face. In practice, I think my instructor actually does want me to think about what I’m doing and develop body awareness, as long as I don’t show it outwardly.

 

[David_In_CA]

FTFY

Heh. I was trying to use Pro as a stand-in for "extremely skilled", but point taken.

Whenever I fall out of it.

Are you trying to stay in this state for the entirety of your lesson with your pro? Or is it only for certain parts (rounds, etc.)?

 

[Arun Garg]

Maybe I'm being a devil's advocate, but leading or following what difference does it make? I do both at a fairly proficient level in the styles I study, and my brain is always on. Partner dancing is an active conversation, and turning off the brain does not make for a very nice conversation partner. Being aware and readily available in the joints is part of thinking, even if it doesn't include a super analytical run down of every action past present and future. Personally, I like my partners to be present in the moment, which requires active concentration and active listening.

 

[vit]

Maybe I'm being a devil's advocate, but leading or following what difference does it make? I do both at a fairly proficient level in the styles I study, and my brain is always on. Partner dancing is an active conversation, and turning off the brain does not make for a very nice conversation partner. Being aware and readily available in the joints is part of thinking, even if it doesn't include a super analytical run down of every action past present and future. Personally, I like my partners to be present in the moment, which requires active concentration and active listening.

I think it's exactly about that - switching off part of the brain that is doing analytical rundowns and similar things ... so it doesn't consume processing power of the rest of the brain, to increase our awareness

 

[vit]

... so "don't think" and "think very hard" or "be very aware" can actually mean the same thing ...

 

[Mengu]

I do both lead and follow a fair amount as well, and this is something I've been trying to sort out myself, so here are my thoughts.

It doesn't matter if I'm leading or following. It is not possible for me to shut my brain down. It will think about something. What I *can* do is direct my attention.

On one extreme, I can think about work, or my schedule for the week, or food, and not think about the dance at all. This doesn't really do anything constructive for practicing or performing.

On the other extreme, I can think about all the technique, the million things I know to do in each moment, and bounce my focus around different areas of the the body or different concepts. That puts my body into constant correction mode, and the dancing kind of sucks. This is bad for performance, but does it help with learning? I don't feel like it does. Because however I dance in practice is how I will end up dancing when I perform. Stiff, tense, and confused. So if I train myself to be in full analysis mode, I'm not really allowing my body to dance naturally.

I need something different. I think this is where resources mentioned like Inner game of Tennis or Zen Body-Being are helpful. When practicing, I need to be in a state where I'm aware of what I'm doing, but not trying to fix things. So I pick a concept to pay attention to, but I'm not fixing it, I'm just observing what I'm doing. My brain is in observation mode, not analysis mode. Then I consider my knowledge and repeat the task again. It's like trying on some new clothing. I'm just observing how it fits and how it feels. Not judging, not fixing, just understanding what what my body is doing (well, maybe I am judging a little, I am INTJ, but leaving out any kind of response, and allowing myself to just be).

I think when instructors tell you not to think, what they really want you to do is be in that observation state, instead of trying to "do it right" which adds tension and is only training you to dance with tension instead of in a relaxed and efficient state. Of course, they can't tell you to "relax" because that's a sure way to get you to tense up. Teaching is hard.

 

[vit]

I think when instructors tell you not to think, what they really want you to do is be in that observation state, instead of trying to "do it right" which adds tension and is only training you to dance with tension instead of in a relaxed and efficient state. Of course, they can't tell you to "relax" because that's a sure way to get you to tense up. Teaching is hard.

For a while, I was attending group BR classes, where the teacher was a man who had several students that were Blackpool winners or finalists ... his voice on the classes was so relaxing, it was almost like in church ... and he was also telling us that being relaxed is very important in dancing, as forcing it simply doesn't work ...

So a teacher can do a lot to relax you ... just many don't know how to do it ... some are making you stressed immediately ....

 

[vit]

... and the same with a partner you are dancing with - he/she can make you relaxed or stressed, no matter does he/she say relax or not ... but saying RELAX! like in Terminator 3 movie (I think) is very unlikely to work