Student Challenges Prevalent in the Pro-am Structure

[JudeMorrigan]

You see, doi, it's the suggestions that ladies in syllabus gear look like crap, or schlubs or sloppy that I'm objecting to. Don't get me wrong, I get the appeal of dressing up as much as possible, and I'm not faulting you for it. Or suggesting that there's anything wrong with syllabus wear not being your cup of chai. I'm sad myself that I won't be able to break out my tailsuit out this October. But I think you're doing a grave disservice to the ladies who dance adult syllabus and frankly being unfairly insulting to them. No, their dresses aren't blinged out, but they're often quite nice, are not street wear and the ladies look quite nice in them.

 

[GGinrhinestones]

My meaning was that when you compete, you don't know how much of your placement is the result of your pro. That is, not just their dancing, but also other factors that may affect judging. Is that what you meant as well?

I see your point, but no, it isn't exactly what I meant. I think Fasc, debmc, and canismajor really summed up my thoughts pretty well - that through experience with my pro I've learned when I'm dancing on my own and when he's carrying me, and over time you can see it in other pro/am couples once you know what to look for. My pro and I have had numerous conversations on this, actually, both when he's told me he's backing off and when I've told him to let me go.

In the subjectivity and politics of competition, sure there are other factors that come into play with placements whether it's pro/am, am/am, or pro. But that isn't the topic here, and I know there are plenty of other threads covering that side of things.

 

[GGinrhinestones]

I actually enjoy the high expectations that are placed on me…just as long as get a “Now, THAT’s dancing!” thrown my way every now and then. Those three words can motivate me for a solid six months.

This. There is something very special about that split second when your pro can't hide the fact that he is having FUN dancing with you!

Bring on the high expectations!

 

[danceronice]

You see, doi, it's the suggestions that ladies in syllabus gear look like crap, or schlubs or sloppy that I'm objecting to. Don't get me wrong, I get the appeal of dressing up as much as possible, and I'm not faulting you for it. Or suggesting that there's anything wrong with syllabus wear not being your cup of chai. I'm sad myself that I won't be able to break out my tailsuit out this October. But I think you're doing a grave disservice to the ladies who dance adult syllabus and frankly being unfairly insulting to them. No, their dresses aren't blinged out, but they're often quite nice, are not street wear and the ladies look quite nice in them.

The schulb reference was to the post (not yours) about having a competition in essentially gray sweats. But I still haven't seen anything as far as cocktail dresses or undecorated practice wear I would consider suitable for competing if you want to not only look good and as if you respect that you're presenting yourself to the public, but that I wouldn't consider street wear. A leotard and wrap skirt or the kind of practice clothes from someone like Designs To Shine's Budapest collection are nice and all, but nothing I'd consider suitable for performing in. I had to stone the cheap dress I have (from Acupulco Paradiso, which would also be illegal without the stones as it has reflective metallic thread.) I wouldn't even consider any of it appropriately formal enough for a non-dance formal occasion. Definitely not suitable for doing something where you're actually performing in front of judges.

 

[JudeMorrigan]

Gotcha. My sincere, snark-free apologies. For what it's worth, I still think you're underestimating what's possible while staying within the syllabus guidelines. I have seen plenty of ladies in de facto cocktail dress. It's not the only possibility though, and practice wear is not common at all, ime. This is the only example I have handy. It's a pretty terrible picture, especially of me (I've improved SO much since this picture was taken, I swear), but it should give you an idea of the sort of dress I'm talking about. The one my partner was wearing was definitely not as fancy as you would see in open or in a pro-am competition, but it was really quite nice, and definitely not street wear. A similar dress made by a professional rather than a local dancer who was a seamstress on the side could really be very nice.

 

[fascination]

This. There is something very special about that split second when your pro can't hide the fact that he is having FUN dancing with you!

Bring on the high expectations!

I am fairly certain that I will have to settle for the occasional twinkle of the eye (which requires looking fairly quickly)...

 

[GGinrhinestones]

I am fairly certain that I will have to settle for the occasional twinkle of the eye (which requires looking fairly quickly)...

Yeah, it's usually that grin that he tries very, very hard to hide the second he catches me looking...

 

[fascination]

You see, doi, it's the suggestions that ladies in syllabus gear look like crap, or schlubs or sloppy that I'm objecting to. Don't get me wrong, I get the appeal of dressing up as much as possible, and I'm not faulting you for it. Or suggesting that there's anything wrong with syllabus wear not being your cup of chai. I'm sad myself that I won't be able to break out my tailsuit out this October. But I think you're doing a grave disservice to the ladies who dance adult syllabus and frankly being unfairly insulting to them. No, their dresses aren't blinged out, but they're often quite nice, are not street wear and the ladies look quite nice in them.

agree...in fact, some of the most exquisite dancing I have every seen has been from women in dresses that are not much more than practice dresses with maybe a piece of nice jewelry or a jeweled belt...with simple but neat hair...on a fit body that dances well, I have alot more respect for that than some blinged out over the top crap on someone who has nothing else going for them...and, given that it would be a color that would stand out, I wouldn't hesitate to wear something simple and smart like that...but I think it really is the topic for another thread

 

[JudeMorrigan]

Sorry fasc. I know better than to go veering of topic like that.

 

[fascination]

you're fine...I was reminding myself as much as anyone else

 

[latingal]

That tells me more than hearing praise, where there's always the question of whether he's just trying to keep a customer happy.

I think it was Jude that mentioned that sometimes positive feedback is necessary in the learning process. And I have plenty of examples of this....why? Because I'm a bit of a freak and can take things to an extreme most people cannot. LOL.

If my pro does not take the time to give me positive feedback as far as when the correction is in or if I'm performing it correctly....I will simply continue to stretch the boundries of making it show up. What has that resulted in with less enlightened pros? Well some really bad habits; too much tension in the body, over energy-ing everything (so much so now that I've been told the correct level is about 60% of what I'm doing) and I can't tell you how many pendular swings between extremes in corrections I've been through.

I learned my lesson...I now actively ask for the positive feedback so I can gauge when I can stop trying and know that the gawl darn thing is in!!

 

[fascination]

I have begun to now ask "are you no longer stopping here because it has gotten better, because you have given up, because something else is worse, (?)"....but the usual rule of thumb is that if he says nothing, it is no longer his primary concern

 

[raindance]

Personally I think positive feedback is very, very important for learning... it is used heavily in animal (e.g. dogs, circus animals, etc) training for a reason, it speeds learning if the learner gets positive feedback for doing the right things. People aren't dogs of course but a lot of the learning principles do apply.

It doesn't have to be effusive praise ("oh, that is great, you are doing super"). But something along the lines of "good, you are getting the idea", or "yes, that's it, I want even more, but you are starting to get it", or "this bit is going well so now we will work on a different bit for a while" (not implying that the first bit can't be improved further at a later date). And the occasional "good job" or "nicely done" or the like, especially after a nice competition performance, meant to tell the student that they performed well given their current stage of development is a good and encouraging thing too. I guess I just don't think a student should have too work too hard to figure out what they are doing right. (Of course while also knowing what the next things to work on are.) I guess I feel sad for dancers who don't get some positive feedback or encouragement from their pros. To me that is part of the job of a teacher of any subject.

 

[JudeMorrigan]

I don't think it was me, but I definitely agree with it. In addition to your example, latingirl, knowing what things are going relatively well helps with budgeting practice time. At least personally, I rarely get implicit instuctions on how to spend my week. Even when I get homework assignments, they tend to take up a relatively small amount of my time. And I definitely don't only work on what I covered in my most recent lesson when I practice.

Plus, we're all human. I'm no fan of praise for the sake of praise, but daggnabit, the occassional "hey, did you notice I didn't have to correct your frame once that entire round?" is nice.

Also, there's the issue of how we present ourselves on the dance floor. If anything, I tend to feel like I get too much positive feedback from my instructor. See, after all, my comment about not being a particular fan of praise for the sake of praise. I know why she does it though. When I came to her, my confidence was rotten, and it reflected in my dancing. She's worked very, very hard at building me up. Maybe she shouldn't have to do that, but the bottom line is that there really is more to what we do out there on the competition floor than steps and pure dance technique. (She does, in fairness, clearly enjoy it. She was positively giddy about how much "Ernesto" came to play in my first couple of Latin rounds at Millennium.)

 

[debmc]

Personally I think positive feedback is very, very important for learning...

It doesn't have to be effusive praise ("oh, that is great, you are doing super"). But something along the lines of "good, you are getting the idea", or "yes, that's it, I want even more, but you are starting to get it", or "this bit is going well so now we will work on a different bit for a while" (not implying that the first bit can't be improved further at a later date). And the occasional "good job" or "nicely done" or the like, especially after a nice competition performance, meant to tell the student that they performed well given their current stage of development is a good and encouraging thing too. I guess I just don't think a student should have too work too hard to figure out what they are doing right. (Of course while also knowing what the next things to work on are.) I guess I feel sad for dancers who don't get some positive feedback or encouragement from their pros. To me that is part of the job of a teacher of any subject.

Yes, this is the kind of positive feedback that I like too. I also expect non patronizing corrective feedback as well "no, not like that" or "try again, that isn't it", etc, etc. Basically I need feedback of some kind in order to know what I am doing well and what I need to improve upon. I guess every student is different, but if I never heard anything positive in a lesson I would assume I was doing very poorly and as latingal mentioned, it would make me less confident with my dancing.