Studio non-fraternization contracts, protecting whom?

[amrimi]

"In Germany such a policy would be against the law because employers are not allowed to tell their employees what they can do in their private lives."

I think I'm moving to Germany. They've got the best tango dancers in the world there, anyway.

Freedom of speech, religion, press and assembly, "the pursuit of happiness," due process, the presumption of innocence all seem to have gotten lost in the shuffle somewhere. Culture, a sense of refinement, a sense of history -- these are European social and cultural values. American Idol and The Apprentice seem to be the epitome of American culture. That and "supersized" fries.

I'm packing my bags.

Sorry to have to disappoint you but this "Big Brother is watching you" mentality which is developing for some time now in the US is starting to swap over the Atlantic. Only this week there was a law passed that abolishes the banking confidentiality (hope I found the correct term). So now every government instution (Tax authorities, social welfare, federal student loans ... etc.) can ask the banks to see your accounts without any specific reasons.

 

[ReneeJoan]

Oh, pooh. Just when I saw libertee, egalitee, et fraternitee waving to me on the horizon.

I guess I better just lie back and let Wal*Mart put an electronic tracking dot on my skin and enjoy it.

 

[cl5814]

Thanks for explaining everything so well, L.

 

[SDsalsaguy]

First, BRAVO Larinda!

All of the issues you mention are real and important! The problem that I have seen is that in *some* circumstances, certain instructors/studios use deliberately emotional selling tactics but then run and "hide" between non-frat clauses. Which doesn't negate any part of what you say, of course, just points out how non-frats can be misused as well...

 

[DancingMommy]

When I was a student, I became close to my teacher's godfather (a fellow student). We used to hang out a LOT since we lived fairly close to each other. The rub came when teacher would show up unexpectedly at his godfather's house.... I would generally beat a hasty reetreat but even THEN it was a problem with teacher's boss. UGH. She was NASTY to me about it. Even after he QUIT.

Did the studio boss have any problem with the teacher fraternizing with his godfather, I wonder? :roll:

let's just say she tolerated it because the godfather came first and brough teacher to the studio as a guest who became a trainee and then a no-experience needed teacher.

 

[SDsalsaguy]

Great follow up Larinda, you won't be getting any arguments from me!

 

[DancePoet]

I had a student come in to take the introductory special, which was 4 half hour lessons. On the second lesson, while I was holding her hand, she was lightly caressing my wrist with her fingers. I couldn't tell whether she was doing this subconciously or on purpose. Either way, I couldn't stop wondering what was going on.

Our studio had a policy that forbid teachers from dating students. This especially applied to private lesson students. Sometimes they would "look the other way" if the student was only enrolled in group lessons. Dating a student who was taking private lessons was strictly prohibited.

On the last lesson it was time to sell her a program. I expressed concern when she told me the private lesons would be difficult to fit into her budget. I told her that maybe group classes might be a good start and then she could add private lessons later. When she got done writing a check for a month of group classes, I asked her out to dinner.

We have been happily married for 3 years (and known each other for 4½ years).

Nice story DM!

Did you ever ask her about those light caresses on the wrist?

 

[DancePoet]

And *I* remember the day she walked into the studio! :lol:

... are you the former student/wife? :shock:

:nope: :nope: :nope:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I just used to work there is all. I ran the front desk, lol!

Well, there must be a good story behind this. Is DM the one that can tell it or is there someone else?

 

[DancePoet]

Besides, I'd feel like a prostitute if I was taking money from my husband to teach him (another reason I don't teach anymore).

Why? If you were, say, a seller of sailboats... and your hubbie wanted one boat, wouldn't he come to you to get it? And wouldn't he pay for it???

Of course he wouldn't. The chicken gets the road for free. He already paid for it, lol! And he just keeps paying and paying, lol. The chicken gets perks I tell ya....

:lol: :lol: :lol:

This is cute DancingMoomy.

See tsb, another reason to beware of chickens. :lol:

 

[DancePoet]

Oh, pooh. Just when I saw libertee, egalitee, et fraternitee waving to me on the horizon.

I guess I better just lie back and let Wal*Mart put an electronic tracking dot on my skin and enjoy it.

Well, I was going to stay away from this, but I didn't start this hijack, so ...

I'll still take America. Granted, justice in our country can be very slow, but eventually it does happen more often then not. Our process of government in America is one of slow and deliberate change to protect against radical change. And this is permeated out into our businesses, non-profit groups, and social communities as well.

However, I can't stand it when I walk into a Barnes & Noble or CVS or whomever, and they ask me if I have a membership card (or whatever it is they call it) to track my purchases. I pay full price to protect my privacy and that's what I tell them. Those that have seen me enough have stopped asking, thank goodness.

And then there is the movie theater folks that tell me for a dollar more I can get twice as much ... if I wanted twice as much then I would have asked for it.

(DP, be careful, this is a thread on fraternization policies.)

Ayuh, I know.

 

[DancePoet]

Larinda, I like how you covered all your bases. Yes, the rules are there to protect the teachers and the students, so perhaps there is not just a self interest by the studios in protecting themselves, and I'm glad the rules can protect both. And since the studios are protecting their own interests first, then that would include protecting their customers as well, and if they keep this in mind, then the rules can be used appropriately.

On another side note, it is good that you didn't adhere to your own personal rules about the "friendly and family" events with everyone. Because dancing is such a social and intimate activity, it almost seems like part of the business to associate with your customers. The bonds that are formed through dance are meaningful to your customers, and at the same time you are correct in being picky and choosy with your time. I suspect you explain, and I'm sure it can be difficult, your appreciation for their invites, and take them up occasionally, but not just everyone of them from every student all the time, and let them know this. If you are truthful with them and sincere, they will understand. Leaders, like you in any community, are always juggling their time and responsibilities to the community with their private time, and I know this isn't easy, and there will always be someone who doesn't take it well, but do what you can without overdoing it. I don't say this critically of you and Steve, I'm really trying to relate it and review it to share my understanding because I've experienced it from a similar perspective, and perhaps it will help in some way.

 

[love2swing]

Very well put Larinda. I remember a previous thread about this, and that's the point I was trying to make, only you wrote in much nicer.

 

[DancePoet]

No DP I didn't take your post as critical. And heck if I can't weather people taking pop shots at me... I certainly wouldn't be posting on the internet, anyway.

Yes, you strike me has having a strong sense of emotional stability.

But I think it does come down to "maturity" in my profession. I have learned how (and earned the right) to make decisions on how and who to spend my time with. I still think teachers that are newer haven't had time to develope the skills that allow them to cultivate great interaction and communication between themselves and students without giving mixed signals as to what is ok and what is not. It certainly took me a little while to get it right, how to make a student know they are worthy and special without it being seen as an invitation cross the professional boundaries.

And that is really why I think those no-frat clauses exist. It gives people a "training period" to learn how to sort through things. At first there is a concrete rule for everyone to follow. Then slowly you test the waters to see what happens.

I like your opinion on why the no-frat clauses should exist, so my next comment doesn't refer to that, but more towards the concept of leadership in a community.

I'm sure you have more experience dealing with this sort of thing in the dance community then me, and that's why your view point is valuable. Just becareful about viewing it as a "right", because that's when actions could possibly be perceived the wrong way as well.

"Gee I went to student A's summer BBQ, but I didn't go to student B's BBQ, and now B feels slighted and made a hurt remark about me liking A better."

Is certainly a different scenario than:

"Wow, Student C just found out they have breast cancer and thinks they are going to die, I think I can go to their house and meet the other people that they feel have made a difference in their life."

True, yet as a leader, there is the possibility of going to one person's BBQ one year, and another the next, and explaining the limits of time to both. However, drawing a No BBQ line, or whatever, is certainly understandable when you carry on the kind of schedule that leader's often do.

I know that a lot of times dancing (and therefore myself and Steve) is a huge part of peoples lives. I would never want someone to think that I don't care to be around them or that I don't appreciate the offers. Or worse yet that I only want to be around them when I am getting paid to do so. And anyone that knows me can tell the difference.

See, now this is the Larinda I suspected existed anyway because real leader's who are worth following have these traits.

But sometimes it is not that easy. It is best to just not mix business with pleasure sometimes. That way no one gets upset, or intruded upon, or feels neglected/slighted. And it keeps the situation fair so we all can down to doing what we love. Dancing.

I do understand what you are getting at, and I suspect you probably balance this better then most.

 

[johns]

The studio where I study has a strict non-fraternization policy. When discussing it with some other students, most of the points already raised in the thread came up, so I'll only mention the ones I haven't seen discussed yet.

Some of the students are married and come without their spouses. Their husbands or wives aren't interested in dancing. Given the very close interactions during lessons, I imagine it's easier on the spouse to know that nothing more can, or at least should, be going on with the teacher. The official policy contributes to a safe learning environment.

One situation that has been hard on people is when a student transitions to teaching. All of a sudden, spending time with their close friends has to stop, as this would violate the student-teacher fraternization policy. It is difficult for the friends, and I imagine it can be quite lonely for the new teacher.

- John

 

[squirrel]

Thank God I live in Romania! We are still free!

My school has no such rules... in fact, I encourage my instructors to mingle with the students... we hang out together not only in Salsa events but outside as well...

About protection of the instructors: well, you don't wanna mess with me! Really... If I hear that one of the instructors is harrassed, that student is OUT OF THE DOOR NOW! Right that very moment! I don't care about his money... Also, I expect my instructors to be able to deal with harrassement and not come to me or my partner every time a student asks them out! They are grown ups and if they are still immature, well, life is tough... it's time to learn and grow up!

About protecting the students: they are grown ups as well or should be (see above). So sleeping with an instructor or a fellow student is entirely their choice. I've had a student in love with one of the instructors and wanting to leave... I talked him out of it... I have another student who had a relationship with one of the new students and they broke up and now one of them wants to quit coming for a while... let him do so! Life is hard... I am not there to pamper people... I can listen and try to be honest about things... but Mother Teresa - I've never been her nor do I want to be!

I've been hurt deeply by one of my instructors, then by a fellow student... I had a nervous breakdown... but now I'm fine... part of my "growing up" process... What doesn't kill you makes you stronger...

I am sorry if I seem so blunt and uncaring... I've witnessed hurt and mess and love and pain and everything... I've lived them myself... but I don't want some stupid rule to tell me who to date...! If I am a vulnerable being and sleep with a bastard... well, I have to live by it!

If an instructor makes the lives of my students miserable, out of the door he goes! I can train another one and I don't care how good they are! Really!