Styles anyone

[Zoopsia59]

But that's the entire point - adornments are not part of the lead/follow relationship.

Exactly. Part of the definition of embellishments and adornments is that they do NOT affect the other partner at all. At least, that's the definition everyone I know goes by. Maybe in your community the accepted use of the terms is different, but judging from the replies here, I'd say you and/or your community is using the terms differently from most.

It is possible for a leader to be aware that a follower is doing a specific embellishment and make use of it for his next led move, but that's a different scenario. For instance, if I do a right over left "beat" and quickly unwind to step back on my right while walking, even though I am trying to do it quietly, my partner will sometimes feel it and change his feet to put my backstep into an ocho. This means my little embellishment gets magnified by the fact that it now goes around instead of just straight back.

However, the front beat I did was the embellishment. Doing an ocho afterwards is simply following his lead. His switch to an ocho is simply him changing feet (not embellishing) so that we are on the correct feet for an ocho. Without his quick weight change, we'd still be walking straight back.

Sometimes I think he did this, not for visual effect, but to let me know that my embellishment was not as quiet in my body as it should be. Perhaps he even felt me tip to my left and was trying to save what he thought was a fall. But I still wouldn't call his change of lead an embellishment, even if it built off my embellishment.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I cant see how you can say that either of these is a pause; a gancho and a boleo are both emphatic fast movements; hook and return, or rebound or displace..

agree.

However, there is some trend now in alternative styling where the follower lifts her leg into a gancho position and holds it there. (didn't you post that video of someone doing that in a colgada, or was that someone else?)

 

[ant]

Sometimes I think he did this, not for visual effect, but to let me know that my embellishment was not as quiet in my body as it should be. Perhaps he even felt me tip to my left and was trying to save what he thought was a fall.

IMO its more likely to be his way of saying he liked what you was doing.

 

[bordertangoman]

agree.

However, there is some trend now in alternative styling where the follower lifts her leg into a gancho position and holds it there. (didn't you post that video of someone doing that in a colgada, or was that someone else?)

more likely to be a step-over colgada- Homer and Christina do these...not a gancho

 

[Nathan]

Because that's a led movement. It's not something the follower decides to do independently. It's quite an important difference.

I fail to see how any two people can be connected and independent at the same time. Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but even unled adornments done by a follower will affect the way I interpret the song and how I interact with her. How can it not? There is always feedback in both directions, so this distinction feels artificial/theoretical to me.

I'd add "change of weight" also, and possibly an exception for a cross step, but yes, that seems 's about right.

I consider a change of weight to be a zero-point side step. The cross is not fundamentally any different from a collected position, except that it changes the quality of the movement that follows it.

Umm, no. At least, not in my opinion. The gancho is not something that the follower should decide to do.

I didn't say it was unled. That would be quite unfortunate!

In my opinion, the gancho is a follower step, which is interrupted by the leader's leg. This interruption creates a hook motion for the follower's leg.

A gancho can be performed by either the leader or the follower.

Again, the boleo is an interrupted step - but with the interruption being led by the leader's body, the follower's leg simply swings out in the direction of the step that's led.

I really don't think there's a pause involved...

If there is no step and no pivot, it's a pause. In the case of a boleo, there is either rotational or linear energy added to induce the free leg to move, but no matter how much that leg whips around, there is no step. However, if the energy is rotational, there will be a pivot, so it's not a pause. Sorry, I should have specified linear (front, back, or side) boleos.

The sacada is a normal step, but taken towards the partner body, so displacing the follower / leader's leg. I'm not sure that a sacada needs any extra energy...

It doesn't have to be more energy, just different energy.

I'm not clear if you are trying to call me a [kitty], or what the point of the smilie is.

I am a cat person. I was asserting my cat-like tendencies. :kitty:

Generally speaking, there are foot movements, weight changes, and pivots. You appear to be defining a pause by the lack of weight changes by the follower, (since the leader certainly can take steps when leading a boleos). If I'm understanding you correctly (which I'm not at all sure), then a calesita would also be considered a pause by you.

No, the calesita is a pivot.

While disagreeing with Nathan, I think the idea is you can, with adequate leading, freeze a boleo or a gancho and stay frozen for four beats and then resume dancing. And so, a not-frozen boleo can be seen a a very short pause. But you cannot freeze a sacada, it would become something else, a tomada or parada.

This was not what I meant, but yes, freezing a movement is always possible, and it leads to a pause. (Also, if a sacada becomes something else when frozen, I would hesitate to claim they are different movements at all. They would simply be variations in quality of the same basic step.)

 

[bordertangoman]

If there is no step and no pivot, it's a pause. .....In the case of a boleo, there is either rotational or linear energy added to induce the free leg to move, but no matter how much that leg whips around, there is no step. However, if the energy is rotational, there will be a pivot, so it's not a pause. Sorry, I should have specified linear (front, back, or side) boleos.
.)

i think thats a poor definition of a pause; there's a lot of things I can lead without them becoming a step, (that is to say involving a weight change) but there's no pause in my movement.

Thinking about it even my pauses are full of portent and latent energy; which the follower feels

 

[bordertangoman]

and what about enchiladas: they dont involve a step or a pivot, but they're not pauses..

 

[Dave Bailey]

I fail to see how any two people can be connected and independent at the same time.

Um. Because they can? Just because I'm connected to my partner, doesn't mean she has no mind of her own or that she's not thinking about her own dancing.

Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but even unled adornments done by a follower will affect the way I interpret the song and how I interact with her. How can it not? There is always feedback in both directions, so this distinction feels artificial/theoretical to me.

You're saying that if your partner tilts her ankle in a certain way as an adornment, that affects your dancing? Frankly, I don't believe that.

The point is, again, adornments are, almost by definition, steps which are not led.

That's it. I'm sticking with that definition, because that's what everyone else uses, and because it makes sense.

Your definition of "adornment" does not make sense.

I consider a change of weight to be a zero-point side step. The cross is not fundamentally any different from a collected position, except that it changes the quality of the movement that follows it.

Fair enough.

If there is no step and no pivot, it's a pause. In the case of a boleo, there is either rotational or linear energy added to induce the free leg to move, but no matter how much that leg whips around, there is no step. However, if the energy is rotational, there will be a pivot, so it's not a pause. Sorry, I should have specified linear (front, back, or side) boleos.

Again, your definitions are... ummm... interesting, I'll give you that.

I suspect we may have to disagree on a lot of these things, because we obviously have different definitions of basic concepts such as what a "pause" - and for that matter a "step" is.

Re: sacadas:

It doesn't have to be more energy, just different energy.

Nuclear?

You seem to be moving the goalposts a bit here.

You initially said:

To get more technical, the gancho is not a step, but an embellished/altered (and laboriously set-up...) form of the pause. The boleo is also a pause, and the sacada is a step (front, back, or side) with a little bit of energy added to it.

Are you still asserting that sacadas, ganchos and boleos are adornments?

 

[newbie]

even unled adornments done by a follower will affect the way I interpret the song and how I interact with her. How can it not? There is always feedback in both directions

Not so.
I remember being invited by a (female) teacher in a milonga. She knew I was a beginner and somehow afraid to dance with her (why somehow? Panicky I was), and that if I felt disturbed by anything unexpected in her steps I would freeze on the dancefloor ("So sorry! Where did I go wrong?").
After the dance we walked to her table. I wanted to thank her for not doing any adorno/embellishment but before I could speak a friend of hers congratulated her on all the nice, fluid and musical adornos/embellishments she had kept doing. I had felt nothing. And seen nothing either because of the close embrace.

Now if the follower is not skilled enough to do adornos/embellishments without her partner noticing then yes she should refrain. "You know, embellishments are supposed to embellish", I once heard a female BsAs teacher say to a girl who insisted on doing a certain adorno any time she could, whatever the music may say or the leader may lead.

 

[bordertangoman]

Not so.
I remember being invited by a (female) teacher in a milonga. She knew I was a beginner and somehow afraid to dance with her (why somehow? Panicky I was), and that if I felt disturbed by anything unexpected in her steps I would freeze on the dancefloor ("So sorry! Where did I go wrong?").
After the dance we walked to her table. I wanted to thank her for not doing any adorno/embellishment but before I could speak a friend of hers congratulated her on all the nice, fluid and musical adornos/embellishments she had kept doing. I had felt nothing. And seen nothing either because of the close embrace.

Now if the follower is not skilled enough to do adornos/embellishments without her partner noticing then yes she should refrain. "You know, embellishments are supposed to embellish", I once heard a female BsAs teacher say to a girl who insisted on doing a certain adorno any time she could, whatever the music may say or the leader may lead.

i had a similar experience with Ines Moussavi, dancing a milonga, I was dancing simple, she was chucking in adornments all over the place, but never did she interfere with my leads and i just kept going. We even got a round of applause... well she did anyway..

 

[Nathan]

Um. Because they can? Just because I'm connected to my partner, doesn't mean she has no mind of her own or that she's not thinking about her own dancing.

If the connection is good, there is no such thing as independent movement. You can try to mute the signals sent to your partner, or ignore those received from them, but they are there all the same.

You're saying that if your partner tilts her ankle in a certain way as an adornment, that affects your dancing? Frankly, I don't believe that.

Unless she has exceptionally massive ankles, I agree that I probably wouldn't feel an ankle tilt much, if at all. There are a number of adornments like that, but they are at the extreme end of a very broad spectrum of movement alterations, most of which are more easily felt.

The point is, again, adornments are, almost by definition, steps which are not led.

Mistakes in following can also become steps which are not led.

Kidding aside, I use the term step to refer exclusively to a foot contacting the ground. In-between steps, where self-led adornments are most likely to occur, there is no contact. The leader is primarily concerned with the timing and placement of the foot, while the follower handles how it gets there. Deviating from the standard line and/or quality of a step is what I call an adornment. These can be led or not, as desired.

That's it. I'm sticking with that definition, because that's what everyone else uses, and because it makes sense.

Your definition of "adornment" does not make sense.

I'm not claiming the standard definition doesn't make some amount of sense, I'm just not convinced it's the best lens through which to view the dance.

I suspect we may have to disagree on a lot of these things, because we obviously have different definitions of basic concepts such as what a "pause" - and for that matter a "step" is.

Oh, I'm sure it's not that bad! I think at the level of basic steps and pausing, we both agree, it's just all the levels after that... :mrgreen:

Are you still asserting that sacadas, ganchos and boleos are adornments?

Yes. In my view, they are adorned/embellished/altered steps, pauses, and pivots.

 

[bordertangoman]

If the connection is good, there is no such thing as independent movement. You can try to mute the signals sent to your partner, or ignore those received from them, but they are there all the same.

goodness! so how is it that i can make weight changes my partner doesnt follow
or like last night in a vals she was stepping on One and I was stepping on one and two.

 

[Nathan]

goodness! so how is it that i can make weight changes my partner doesnt follow
or like last night in a vals she was stepping on One and I was stepping on one and two.

She's learned to ignore you.

 

[Peaches]

Nathan, in all seriousness, where are you getting your ideas? You have some of the most unusual definitions and interpretations and understanding of fundamental concepts I have ever run across. Are these ideas you've run across from teachers, or your own way of looking at them, or...??? Seriously.

 

[tangomonkey]

Nathan - what Peaches said...

You have a very different way of looking at things. That's fine if it works for you and your partners. So long as you both connect and dance with the music no one can say you are wrong. After all, the tango that can be spoken of is not the true tango (Sorry, Lao Tzu).