subtlety and diplomacy

[jfm]

What do you do when you know there is a problem and it's very obvious but the person is very sensitive?

I have a friend who I practice with and go to milongas with. The last year or so they have been a bit fed up (to the point of not wanting to dance any more) because of the lack of willing partners, but I didn't know why this might be.

Recently we have started having occasional "practice" sessions (or rather let's dance away from the milonga, because then we will both definitely get to dance and we can choose our favourite music sessions), and I realised that there is a major issue of balance at play. We only dance in open embrace at the moment because my partner is not comfortable with close embrace. I have noticed that there is a lot of lean-not forward presence but actually making me entirely responsible for both of our balance.

The person has taken very few lessons but has been dancing for 2-3 years, in effect they have learned on the dance floor and I'm pretty sure that the people "teaching" were giving very very bad advice (typical dancefloor instructor pests) and were also mostly quite tall and stout.

I have tried to suggest that we go to lessons together but this suggestion was brushed off with the "I don't need to go, I won't learn anything there, but I'm sure you'll have fun on your own" response. I think if I said outright, "this this and this is a problem, or I think you need to work on this", it would not be taken in the spirit intended.

What other subtle/diplomatic way could I address the problem? Money is an issue (so private lessons are impossible because there has to be the will as well as the cash), and I don't feel that as a peer (albeit with a few more years of practice) I am qualified to give technical advice.

I am pretty sure that the lack of willing partners at milongas is due to the balance issue (it's exhausting maintaing balance for two people in open embrace and very difficult to do anything involving pivots unless you are a large person who can throw their small partner around).

I just want to make it more likely that we will both have a good time when we go to a milonga and to help rebulild lost confidence.

Should I just say it outright at our next session?

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

It looks to me that you already have offered an appropriate piece of advice, and it was not accepted. So far you have been giving to that person your help and support (pun intended ) to no avail.

I just want to make it more likely that we will both have a good time when we go to a milonga and to help rebulild lost confidence.

There is no miracle. One has to learn in order to improve, and for that, one got to be willing to learn. By being more upfront, you may put yourself in a conflict situation.
I would say, if the situation does not change for the better soon, write it off. It seems that yours and that person's goals do not really match.

 

[Ampster]

There really is no subtle way to do it other than to point out what is wrong. And the appropriate corrective actions (lessons/pointers/help) be taken. Perhaps it comes from you, perhaps it should come from somebody else. But, it must be made known, and your partner needs to listen.

Sometimes I find that the same observation needs to come from some other "reputable expert" in order for it to stick. How you get there...? Be creative. Make friends with someone REALLY good, and use them as a sounding board? Be imaginative.

Both of you need to understand that tango is a very complicated and subtle dance. It takes a lot of learning to get better. Both of you need to understand this. If one is resistant, then it probably will not work out in the long run.

 

[Steve Pastor]

I realised that there is a major issue of balance at play. We only dance in open embrace at the moment because my partner is not comfortable with close embrace. I have noticed that there is a lot of lean-not forward presence but actually making me entirely responsible for both of our balance.

I'm pretty sure that the people "teaching" were giving very very bad advice (typical dancefloor instructor pests) and were also mostly quite tall and stout.

I've never considered myself good at subtlety and diplomacy (although I was brought up to be humbler about everything!) so here's another take on this.
You COULD think about it this way, or not.
If you can't change the situation, change the way you think about it.

In a weight sharing "embrace", whether close or open, the amount of weight you put into your partner must be equal for both of you to remain in place. It can be either hardly any at all - the way most people are taught - or it can be a lot.
What it FEELS like to each partner, though, can be something else entirely.
If a man is tall, he has an advantage of leverage. If he has a lot of "mass", the percent of his weight needed to balance the woman's forward weight is less than if he is short and/or has less mass.

If you don't like lots of weight sharing, you don't like it. It may be "wrong" for you, or "wrong" within your community, but guys like me prefer dancing that way since it can provide a profound feeling of connection when combined with other elements.

There are ways to use that forward weight to your advantage.

How well does she repond to your leads that you are moving forward, her backwards?
She may also feel "heavy" or "light" there.
Is this a problem also?

Gotta go now and run before it gets dark!
May write more tomorrow, depending on how the thread goes.

 

[Gssh]

What i do in practice sessions is trying to set up an environment where is is ok and expected to give and get criticism, and that is not like a milonga at all

-I asked a lot about what i was doing, and tried hard to be grateful for any feedback, and to try to apply it.
-I announced beforehand what i was working on, did it a few times, asked for feedback, talked about what i saw, tried to troubleshoot problems, and so on.
-I treated the music as background noise - dance over the break between songs, stop in the middle, chat, start again, and so on.
-I tried to establish a pattern of give and take "so now i have worked a bit on this issue i was having, what do you want to work on?"
-The pattern we developed was usually dancing a few songs to warm up, practicing, and when one of us got too tired to think about stuff anymore we would dance a bit for fun before stopping.

I think the key is to make it clear that you both are working on technique, too, and that it is about input, and polishing details. It is not about dancing, but about cultivating the skills and abilities needed for the dance.

(actually in my case i was the one who had a bit of trouble accepting feedback - i did all these things to remind myself that i was there to practice, and not to impress my partner)

Gssh

 

[dchester]

What do you do when you know there is a problem and it's very obvious but the person is very sensitive?

. . .

I just want to make it more likely that we will both have a good time when we go to a milonga and to help rebulild lost confidence.

Should I just say it outright at our next session?

Based on what you have posted, my guess is that subtle will not work. I would just state the issues as you see them, and see what kind of reaction you get. I would not offer ideas on how to solve the issues, unless you are asked.

 

[Peaches]

Could you use the "I need"/"I feel like" turn of phrase perhaps? As in, "I find that I am having a hard time leading X. It feels like blah blah blah." Or, "In order for me to do my thing, I need you to be on your own axis/step more towards me/take a smaller step/keep your energy directed toward me. Because when it feels like I'm supporting you/you're stepping in a direction away from me/taking a step that size/it feels like you're energy is not directed forward, then it affects me [this way]."

Really, I've got no clue. I'm not much for either subtlety or diplomacy.

ETA: Generally, though, "I need" statements tend to be a good way of asking for what the other person has got to do...but without blaming or outright criticising.

 

[Mladenac]

I don't have a feeling that you are dancing AT.
By that I mean that you dance together, with mutual respect.

You can say what you feel, or sth like that, what you have been taught.
How it should or so, and she could say what you are actually doing.

If you carry on dancing with you will end up frustrated.

I don't get how can you say that you are practicing if you guys don't communicate at all.

 

[Dave Bailey]

What other subtle/diplomatic way could I address the problem?

None.

Frankly, I'd just leave it - you can't force someone to learn.

Should I just say it outright at our next session?

If you have a real practice session, then that's what the session is for - constructive critcism with the intention of improving. Otherwise, why bother?

If you feel you can't raise dancing issues with her at a practica, I'd question whether you should be at a practica with her.

 

[bordertangoman]

The balance contact issue may be one of trust; I have known ladies who dont like close embrace because they feel insecure; you can find exercises to work on that if she is comfortable with it.
Balance is again something that can be worked on; but echoing Peaches post the I Need/ I feel approach can be helpful as can a bit of empathy ( See Non-Violent Communication NVC for ways to develop this.)

 

[newbie]

Tell your partner that's it's an exercise, not a correction. This is what I tell myself when attending a workshop with an unknown teacher and I discover that I don't like his style.
Instead of arguing with the teacher about his style, I just say to myself that I will try his style, just for the time of this workshop.

 

[bordertangoman]

The balance contact issue may be one of trust; I have known ladies who dont like close embrace because they feel insecure; you can find exercises to work on that if she is comfortable with it.
Balance is again something that can be worked on; but echoing Peaches post the I Need/ I feel approach can be helpful as can a bit of empathy ( See Non-Violent Communication NVC for ways to develop this.)

My own balance improved simple through practising ochos on my own for about five minutes a day; its the combination of muscle strength and body memory that is required. because there is nothing wrong with most people's balance otherwise we'd be falling over all day ( get an inner ear infection and thats what can happen.)

 

[Mario7]

My own balance improved simple through practising ochos on my own for about five minutes a day; its the combination of muscle strength and body memory that is required.

Yep, balance can definately be improved...I work on it a half hour a day
walking to music..I find ways of making it a little more difficult.:artsy:
The thing is though, when you add the partner, that's when the balance
gets thrown in another direction... Zoop has a crossed arms exercise that
helps a lot in that it mimics the adjustment that has to be made with a partner.