But I am better than most women in a partnered dance. I rarely dance the woman's part but if I do, it'll be in a class where another man needs help with his lead so I can give feedback that none of the women know how to give. The more secure men (that is, they aren't worried about looking like a homosexual by dancing with another man) the easier it is to dance/practice with another man.
Taking the lead: So you think you can challenge gender roles in dance?
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LadyLeader
Forum Master
I think it can be more important for private dance schools to keep the traditions and make it easier for visitors. On the contrary in our Argentine dance communities it is more an advantage to have ladies with double skills helping in the class in the role needed and at the parties too. Some of them have really beautiful dance.
And yes, it is much harder for a male follower to get dances in the western world. An interesting detail is that when I visited a town in southwest of China (-87) and ended up a huge official dance party there was ordinary couples dancing vals and male couples. But when I was leading my femail traveling partner they find it quite funny. We did not have any language to communicate but it looked like the male dancing was more acceptable than a female dito. (anyone knows more about it?)
And yes, it is much harder for a male follower to get dances in the western world. An interesting detail is that when I visited a town in southwest of China (-87) and ended up a huge official dance party there was ordinary couples dancing vals and male couples. But when I was leading my femail traveling partner they find it quite funny. We did not have any language to communicate but it looked like the male dancing was more acceptable than a female dito. (anyone knows more about it?)
twnkltoz
Forum Master
Obviously, as a teacher I do both roles. Only one time can I remember a woman who was resistant to dancing with me in class, and it was probably her first lesson. Most women love it because I lead better than the men in class. I often lead at socials, either because women ask me or I ask them. I do this at ballroom, tango, and WCS venues. I recently did a little AT showcase at my studio leading a female friend and people went nuts over it, saying it was steamy and intense and they couldn't take their eyes off it. Men tend to be less likely to switch roles, although some will do it with their regular partner or a friend so they know it won't bother anyone. I think as you progress and get into more intermediate/advanced classes, it's easier to get accepted doing it because by then students understand it's about dance and not sex.
LadyLeader
Forum Master
There is some indications for more easy going tomorrow for male followers too. In ATango you can find videos of at least two male followers, one in Europe (Holland/Nederl) and this guy in Brasil demonstrating here follower's footwork.
LadyLeader
Forum Master
Yes that is true! And I had it in my mind when I decided to change my dance role.
I considered myself as a vandal, breaking down existing social structures for my private pleasure. I think this mindset made me actually more flexible and I accepted the resistance and other opinions.
Only thing I asked for was some social space to dance in my way - I did NOT ask the others to change their habits, not even change their minds, but just allow me some extra space.
The transition took only a few months and I have never been seriously attacked for my dance role change. The issues on the way have had other grounds.
This is brief, but I enjoyed noticing it. This is a champion level Jack & Jill West Coast contest, where the leader, follower, and music are chosen randomly. In a sequence around 3:25 or so, the follow takes the lead for a moment. She does it so smoothly, the lead don't even seem to realize it until after, when he starts to laugh.
ProgressNotPerfection
Forum Master
OH MY GOD THAT WAS INCREDIBLE! I WAS GRINNING THE WHOLE TIME! (Except when my jaw was down on the floor.) HOW DO PEOPLE LEARN TO DO THAT???? They looked like they’d been partnering each other for years. It looked almost choreographed in many places. THAT WAS AMAZING!!!
I take back everything I said about “I’m getting better at following.” Clearly I know NOTHING yet! But that’s okay... someday I will.
#notworthy
#somuchtolearn
#westcoasthasneverlookedsoinviting
#omgomgomgomgblownaway
Lots of practice.... To get into a Champions J&J, you have to have recently won a J&J at the All-Star level, which means pointing your way up through Novice, Intermediate, and Advanced.
The swing and blues dances place a lot of emphasis on dance as a conversation, so followers get a lot of input into the dance even without stealing the lead (for example, at 2:15 when she puts her hand on his chest, that's a standard signal for "stop leading for a moment, I want to do something").
You need to watch more WCS J&J videos
. Prepare to pick your jaw up off the floor again and again: (dancing starts at 1:45)
Well, in fairness, those two actually had partnered for a few years. Most of the Champion level dancers have danced with each other a fair amount, of course, just because they all dance in the same circles and often came up together.
Yeah, the Champion level dancers tend to be familiar with each other but here's a dance where the contestants had never met each other before:
To be fair, I imagine Trendlyon watched videos of Robert and was familiar (in theory) with his signature moves. Robert has danced at the Championship level for over 25 years and every up-and-coming follower knows who he is.
As for how people learn to do that ... think of all the effort you (PNP) have put into the precision of your dance, polishing each micro-movement. Then think of directing that level of effort towards a different goal - observing, interpreting, and responding to another person and to the music.
Ballroom dance training does not focus on the skills needed to excel at West Coast Swing Jack and Jill competition. They're both partner dance and they require some of the same core principles (control, balance, flexibility, etc., etc.). But I recall ballroom lessons being focused on getting all the body parts in the exact correct position for every part of every pattern. In contrast, our WCS lessons often focus on spontaneity and musicality.
The physical communication in WCS tends to occur in only one or two points of contact. (One of the challenges if there is more than one point of contact is determining which is primary and which is supplemental.) As long as information is clearly communicated using the necessary body parts (meaning those particular body parts are in the necessary position), the non-involved body parts can be doing anything that doesn't interfere with the connection. As a follower, I learn to make my body parts (hand, arm, back, ribs, hip) available and responsive to the leader's signals - in the moment. The leader learns which body parts are available and how to use them. The most interesting moves are the ones that are created in response to the current partner and the music, whether or not they have ever been done before.
It's not just a matter of whether the dance is choreographed or not. The WCS circuit has a Showcase division for choreographed routines, and many of the top dancers participate. But the primary focus of WCS judging is response to the music using good technique, and the primary focus of Ballroom judging is perfection of technique in time to the music. If a WCS performance could be danced exactly the same to a different piece of music, it's not Championship level; it's probably not even Intermediate level.
Once you pick you jaw off the floor, review the video closely. Notice Robert's visual leads and how Trendlyon picks them up. Notice when the crowd roars in response to simple moves done perfectly in sync. Notice that both of them are obviously familiar with the music and know exactly when to use certain moves to capture the moment. You don't need to know your partner, you just need to know how to communicate to the music.
To be fair, I imagine Trendlyon watched videos of Robert and was familiar (in theory) with his signature moves. Robert has danced at the Championship level for over 25 years and every up-and-coming follower knows who he is.
As for how people learn to do that ... think of all the effort you (PNP) have put into the precision of your dance, polishing each micro-movement. Then think of directing that level of effort towards a different goal - observing, interpreting, and responding to another person and to the music.
Ballroom dance training does not focus on the skills needed to excel at West Coast Swing Jack and Jill competition. They're both partner dance and they require some of the same core principles (control, balance, flexibility, etc., etc.). But I recall ballroom lessons being focused on getting all the body parts in the exact correct position for every part of every pattern. In contrast, our WCS lessons often focus on spontaneity and musicality.
The physical communication in WCS tends to occur in only one or two points of contact. (One of the challenges if there is more than one point of contact is determining which is primary and which is supplemental.) As long as information is clearly communicated using the necessary body parts (meaning those particular body parts are in the necessary position), the non-involved body parts can be doing anything that doesn't interfere with the connection. As a follower, I learn to make my body parts (hand, arm, back, ribs, hip) available and responsive to the leader's signals - in the moment. The leader learns which body parts are available and how to use them. The most interesting moves are the ones that are created in response to the current partner and the music, whether or not they have ever been done before.
It's not just a matter of whether the dance is choreographed or not. The WCS circuit has a Showcase division for choreographed routines, and many of the top dancers participate. But the primary focus of WCS judging is response to the music using good technique, and the primary focus of Ballroom judging is perfection of technique in time to the music. If a WCS performance could be danced exactly the same to a different piece of music, it's not Championship level; it's probably not even Intermediate level.
Once you pick you jaw off the floor, review the video closely. Notice Robert's visual leads and how Trendlyon picks them up. Notice when the crowd roars in response to simple moves done perfectly in sync. Notice that both of them are obviously familiar with the music and know exactly when to use certain moves to capture the moment. You don't need to know your partner, you just need to know how to communicate to the music.
ProgressNotPerfection
Forum Master
That is amazing! I couldn’t tell who was leading - which I suppose is the point, sort of (plus I’m a newbie, so I have to look harder to see things). Had to watch several times to follow the switches.
ProgressNotPerfection
Forum Master
Yes! All of this! (Jaw stayed on the floor, though.)
For me, this is a whole new level, new concept, new definition, new UNIVERSE of “musicality.” WOW.
ProgressNotPerfection
Forum Master
Where is the emoji for huge grin, eyes wide, eyebrows up at the hairline, alternately laughing and saying “wow,” and shaking head in impressed amazement?