tango and maths? Loving/addicted to tango :) Tips for beginner...
- Thread starter LovingIt28
- Start date
LovingIt28
New Member
wow - what great enlightened responses. Learnt and felt so much.
thanks!!!
thanks!!!
I apologize - i was not trying to derail your thread, and judging by the last response you feel quite hurt. Again, apologies.
OTOH, i am a mathematician, and honestly, my first reaction to the OP was "hmm, if i wanted to create a mathematical model of tango i probably would not choose an exponential series (which does not have markov properties, but is instead possibel to reconstruct every single element of the complete series from any point on it), but i would try to emphasize that the beauty of tango lies (imho) in its marcov properties, where every step can follow any other step". Again, this might have fallen a bit flat.
So, let me try this again without referring to mathematical concepts:
The beauty of tango is for me not the fact that there so many different possible moves, and that a good dancer is able to make up infinitively many sequences and figures.
It is actually in the contrary that tango has only a few, very basic prinicples that can be combined limitlessly. The most enlightening moments for me have been when i looked at a figure that i knew, and realized that it was just the same old basic elements combined in a new way. Like when i really understood that a ocho is only step-pivot-step, and a moulinette is ocho-sidestep-ocho-sidestep, and this means that a ocho can be tranformed into a moulinette, and that all the moves that i knew that started with an ocho could be started from an moulinette and so on.
Becoming aware of the limitless freedom i have because i can go from any step to any other step, and that even fancy moves follow this basic logic deep down - the basic saccada is just a followers sidestep, and a leaders front step, and some dissociation to make it possible that i am moving in a different direction than her. This means that i can do a side step, or a back step instead, or use my right leg or my left leg, or she could step to the front, or to the back, and either to my right or to my left. So, there are not infinite possibilities, but just 5 or so, and the genius of tango is that it looks like it infintely complex.
Gssh
OTOH, i am a mathematician, and honestly, my first reaction to the OP was "hmm, if i wanted to create a mathematical model of tango i probably would not choose an exponential series (which does not have markov properties, but is instead possibel to reconstruct every single element of the complete series from any point on it), but i would try to emphasize that the beauty of tango lies (imho) in its marcov properties, where every step can follow any other step". Again, this might have fallen a bit flat.
So, let me try this again without referring to mathematical concepts:
The beauty of tango is for me not the fact that there so many different possible moves, and that a good dancer is able to make up infinitively many sequences and figures.
It is actually in the contrary that tango has only a few, very basic prinicples that can be combined limitlessly. The most enlightening moments for me have been when i looked at a figure that i knew, and realized that it was just the same old basic elements combined in a new way. Like when i really understood that a ocho is only step-pivot-step, and a moulinette is ocho-sidestep-ocho-sidestep, and this means that a ocho can be tranformed into a moulinette, and that all the moves that i knew that started with an ocho could be started from an moulinette and so on.
Becoming aware of the limitless freedom i have because i can go from any step to any other step, and that even fancy moves follow this basic logic deep down - the basic saccada is just a followers sidestep, and a leaders front step, and some dissociation to make it possible that i am moving in a different direction than her. This means that i can do a side step, or a back step instead, or use my right leg or my left leg, or she could step to the front, or to the back, and either to my right or to my left. So, there are not infinite possibilities, but just 5 or so, and the genius of tango is that it looks like it infintely complex.
Gssh
LovingIt28
New Member
Thanks Gssh, was not upset just enlightened lol.
I appreciated the posters brining out some important points.
By saying Tango is maths I was merely making conversation. If Tango WAS maths it would be called Maths not tango
However, the topic raises for me at least, interesting discussion as you have given below.
For instance. All a computer can do is at a basic form add 0 and 1. Yet look at the possibilities. As for your post, the basics combine to create a myriad of possibilities and potential.
Boundless, only by our imagination I imagine as the same move can be done with a variety of emotion/feeling etc etc multiplied by the same with your partner.
Very interesting situation
I appreciated the posters brining out some important points.
By saying Tango is maths I was merely making conversation. If Tango WAS maths it would be called Maths not tango
However, the topic raises for me at least, interesting discussion as you have given below.
For instance. All a computer can do is at a basic form add 0 and 1. Yet look at the possibilities. As for your post, the basics combine to create a myriad of possibilities and potential.
Boundless, only by our imagination I imagine as the same move can be done with a variety of emotion/feeling etc etc multiplied by the same with your partner.
Very interesting situation
Heather2007
New Member
For instance. All a computer can do is at a basic form add 0 and 1. Yet look at the possibilities.
Indeed! All the teacher can do is show you the basics, it is then up to you to create the possibilities.
Gssh:
How good are you at constructing models?
I'd like to have one for West Coast Swing to see what the likelihood is of any number of couples being in the walk walk or end of the slot at the same time.
It would be fun, too, I think, to have a Random Tango Model which could then set to music.
formuli in Excel?? anyother ideas?
How good are you at constructing models?
I'd like to have one for West Coast Swing to see what the likelihood is of any number of couples being in the walk walk or end of the slot at the same time.
It would be fun, too, I think, to have a Random Tango Model which could then set to music.
formuli in Excel?? anyother ideas?
Warning! This is a probably stupid detour!
by request i present: The random milonga model - drumroll!
in r code (w w w .r-project.org):
This is a tango simulator in that generates random sequences based on the milonga basic (1: backstep with the right foot, 2: sidestep to the left, 3: frontstep with the right foot, 4: frontstep with the left foot, 5: sidestep to the right, 6: collect left foot to the right and shift weight - i am too lazy to use a larger set of basic steps). The underlying assumption is that the dancer will follow the classic milonga basic most of the time (60%) and only deviate some times. This code generates sequences of "size" length (here 6). The figure will end with 6, and start with a step one can do from the 6, i.e. collected with weight on their left foot, which means that they can be chained infinitivly.
Testruns resulted in:
1) 1 2 1 4 5 6
back, side, rockstep back, side, collect
2) 3 4 5 6 1 6
walk forward, sidestep, collect, back, collect
3) 1 2 3 6 5 6
back, side, front, collect, shuffle to the right
4) 1 4 5 4 5 6
rockstep back, sidestep to the right, frontstep, sidestep, collect
Not too bad - i like 2) and 3) and the other ones are danceable too. Might make a nice game to warm up - pick a random sequence from the hat, and dance it.
by request i present: The random milonga model - drumroll!
in r code (w w w .r-project.org):
Code:
[I]P <- matrix( c([/I]
[I]0, .6 ,0 , .2, 0, .2, [/I]
[I].2, 0 ,.6 , 0, .2, 0, [/I]
[I]0, .2 ,0, .6, 0, .2,[/I]
[I].2, 0 ,.2 , 0, .6, 0,[/I]
[I]0, .2 ,0, .2, 0, 0.6,[/I]
[I].6, 0 ,.2, 0, 0.2 ,0[/I]), 6,6, byrow=TRUE)
[I]simMilonga <- function( P, size=6) { [/I]n <- NROW(P)
result <- numeric(size)
result[1] <- sample(1:n,1,prob=P[6,])
result[size]<- 6
for (i in 2:(size-1)) {
result[I] <- sample(1:n, 1, prob=P[ result[i-1], ]) [/I]
[I]} [/I]
[I]result [/I]
[I]} [/I]
[i][I]figure <- simMilonga(P) [/I]
[I]figure[/I]Testruns resulted in:
1) 1 2 1 4 5 6
back, side, rockstep back, side, collect
2) 3 4 5 6 1 6
walk forward, sidestep, collect, back, collect
3) 1 2 3 6 5 6
back, side, front, collect, shuffle to the right
4) 1 4 5 4 5 6
rockstep back, sidestep to the right, frontstep, sidestep, collect
Not too bad - i like 2) and 3) and the other ones are danceable too. Might make a nice game to warm up - pick a random sequence from the hat, and dance it.
LovingIt28
New Member
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
Last night I ws endeavour to teach walking turns without predeterming either partners steps or whether or not one was in cross system;
simplified this would mean step, 90 deg turn, step 90 turn, repeated till one was facing the line of dance again ( basically using the Castro system)
Start with leader & follower each decideing indepently which eg they are standing on to start with (4 possible combinations) then off you go.
Have fun trying this!
simplified this would mean step, 90 deg turn, step 90 turn, repeated till one was facing the line of dance again ( basically using the Castro system)
Start with leader & follower each decideing indepently which eg they are standing on to start with (4 possible combinations) then off you go.
Have fun trying this!
Tango-ne
New Member
I'm new to this discussion forum, heck, I'm new to tango, anyways, it might be a little late to jump into this thread, but it parallels something (as a newbie) I've been thinking about. One of my tango teachers sold me his iPod that was still loaded with over 1500 tango songs! It is only HALF of his collection. His knowledge of tango music is immense! He said though, that there are a few hundred "most popular" songs, out of which there are just a few dozen "always played" songs. And because he knows these songs...he knows when certain phrases are coming up, and he nails some pretty awesome moves right on the beat when the phrase comes up!
Ok, so that got me thinking: he is obviously responding to the music, and he is indeed being totally improvisionary, but he has the advantage of knowing the music and being able to set up a certain "moment" for his partner. Which I think is part of the dance where the motion is nailed onto the music, and it occurs to me that the other part that keeps it nailed is the end...where often he knows how many more steps are coming before the dramatic pose is hit! Come to think of it, the other part where the motion is totally there is when he starts...whereas I do the typically taught "listen, wait, come together, find her weight, listen, listen...annnnnnnd, go!", he gets to do all the waiting while knowing when he is going to start, so he gets to wind up to it.
What I learned is that knowing the technical points of a figure are necessary in order to do them spontaneously without pre-planning, or to do them even halfway, or break them apart into different steps, BUT also, knowing the music contributes greatly to knowing where to be spontaneous, and where you can be framed in by the music. I think of it as a whitewater raft ride, there are great expanses where you can paddle from shore to shore, but there are also narrow chasm where you can but ride out the rapids! (At this point, my sweetie will say, enough pontificating, get in more practice! so here I go)
Ok, so that got me thinking: he is obviously responding to the music, and he is indeed being totally improvisionary, but he has the advantage of knowing the music and being able to set up a certain "moment" for his partner. Which I think is part of the dance where the motion is nailed onto the music, and it occurs to me that the other part that keeps it nailed is the end...where often he knows how many more steps are coming before the dramatic pose is hit! Come to think of it, the other part where the motion is totally there is when he starts...whereas I do the typically taught "listen, wait, come together, find her weight, listen, listen...annnnnnnd, go!", he gets to do all the waiting while knowing when he is going to start, so he gets to wind up to it.
What I learned is that knowing the technical points of a figure are necessary in order to do them spontaneously without pre-planning, or to do them even halfway, or break them apart into different steps, BUT also, knowing the music contributes greatly to knowing where to be spontaneous, and where you can be framed in by the music. I think of it as a whitewater raft ride, there are great expanses where you can paddle from shore to shore, but there are also narrow chasm where you can but ride out the rapids! (At this point, my sweetie will say, enough pontificating, get in more practice! so here I go)