Tango illusions

[Angel HI]

Yeah, I've known persons who do it, and teach it, also. Still "know" it to be comepletely unnecessary, and often overdone by beginners. The number of complaints I receive from ladies who have had their backs prodded and dug into far exceed the kudos. But, hey, if it works for some, go for it.

 

[tangobro]

Illusion or not - does it really matter?

(well unless you're performing I guess)

It matters in that some people mistake the illusion for the reality. I've seen ladies at tango venues here in New York City (particularly the free ones) who think that doing their own versions of ganchos & voleos, without regard to what's being led, is the way tango is danced. I've had the misfortune to dance with a few of them. For the other moves which may not be what they appear to the outside observer, the illusions may contribute to the problems with trying to learn tango by watching dancers on youtube.

 

[spectator]

I have often noticed that a lot of the performances I have seen have clearly been choreographed (for obvious reasons!) so there is also the illusion of spontaneity. Maybe sometimes it is a bit more obvious that a boleo or gancho was not quite lead (with the best will in the world, if you have practiced something a lot it is hard to not do it automatically) so then people think you don't need to lead them? Also so many guys I have danced with haven't actually learned how to lead ganchos properly. They make the shape and wait expectantly so one feels one has to do something out of kindness. It does mean that if there is a pregnant pause and the leader has inadvertantly "assumed the position" he may get something he wasn't expecting....

 

[Captain Jep]

It matters in that some people mistake the illusion for the reality. I've seen ladies at tango venues here in New York City (particularly the free ones) who think that doing their own versions of ganchos & voleos, without regard to what's being led, is the way tango is danced. I've had the misfortune to dance with a few of them. For the other moves which may not be what they appear to the outside observer, the illusions may contribute to the problems with trying to learn tango by watching dancers on youtube.

Well yes but .... I think most of the folk on this forum are aware of that. It doesnt need repeating.

Or maybe you want to indulge in some follower bashing? Heaven knows, there seems to have been enough of that recently. About time the ladies bashed back I reckon

 

[Dave Bailey]

Also so many guys I have danced with haven't actually learned how to lead ganchos properly. They make the shape and wait expectantly so one feels one has to do something out of kindness. It does mean that if there is a pregnant pause and the leader has inadvertantly "assumed the position" he may get something he wasn't expecting....

Yes, I think that's fair. Ganchos are a difficult move to do, there's a good case for saying that they're not things you should do on a social dance floor at all, and certainly not until you've mastered them.

I think I only really twigged how to lead them a year or so ago, and I'm still not 100% on them yet.

 

[tangobro]

Well yes but .... I think most of the folk on this forum are aware of that. It doesnt need repeating.

Or maybe you want to indulge in some follower bashing? Heaven knows, there seems to have been enough of that recently. About time the ladies bashed back I reckon

based on the number of views a given post may have compared to the number of replies...I think most of the folk on this forum do not post - so I can't judge what most of the folk on this forum are aware of. I'm not follower bashing, only speaking from my experience as a leader. I'm sure followers can cite their own experiences with leaders who misunderstood some dynamic of a tango move - based on what it looked like, and then tried to imitate what they saw.

Because there have been some recent threads about how to lead sacadas or ocho cortados where the questioner used dance vids (not instructional vids) to illustrate what he wanted to accomplish, a couple of comments that I've often heard from different instructors came to mind:
"...much of tango is illusion..."
"...a good lead should not be obvious to an outside observer..." (should be subtle).

I think these things make it hard for a person, who does not have an instructor, to look at tango dancers & try to learn by watching - and even harder to learn by watching YT vids.

Not to knock those who have posted those questions, I think it's good that they seek information from the forum, and really good that the forum responds with info.

About la marca - using a slight pressure with either the palm of the hand, or the closed fingers to indicate a left or right step. Several Argentine women I've spoken with (who never took a dance class) say that is how they learned tango from their uncles, father, whoever.

 

[Captain Jep]

based on the number of views a given post may have compared to the number of replies...I think most of the folk on this forum do not post - so I can't judge what most of the folk on this forum are aware of. I'm not follower bashing, only speaking from my experience as a leader. I'm sure followers can cite their own experiences with leaders who misunderstood some dynamic of a tango move - based on what it looked like, and then tried to imitate what they saw.

Fair enough. We dont know what people think, but I still think the point has been made enough times on this forum.

The "illusion" that I find more interesting is whether the follower is taking the lead given and just following it - or are they adding to it? For instance, how much of a high boleo is led, and how much added? How to give that information to the follower wont be at all obvious if watching a video of the movement.

About la marca - using a slight pressure with either the palm of the hand, or the closed fingers to indicate a left or right step. Several Argentine women I've spoken with (who never took a dance class) say that is how they learned tango from their uncles, father, whoever.

Yes I can imagine that was the case. Personally I expect I would find it quite irritating. A bit like having your head moved around when you're getting your hair cut

 

[Steve Pastor]

About la marca - using a slight pressure with either the palm of the hand, or the closed fingers to indicate a left or right step. Several Argentine women I've spoken with (who never took a dance class) say that is how they learned tango from their uncles, father, whoever.

I have yet to be convinced that AT is not operating under a new paradigm, some of which comes from the greater equality of the sexes that has occurred throughout the 20th century, and a current empahsis on "improvisation".
If someone has previously presented materials that support an opposite view, please share again, because I missed it. (Also, we have a bunch of new people since I brought this up before.)

Blair has written that we know much more about dance, and how it really works, now than in previous decades. With AT, though, I wonder. I have seen even teachers whom I respected change their tune, meaning, what, I wonder. That what they taught in (recent) years past is no longer "true", or that what they teach now is "better"?