Tango Love and Chaos

hi there CJ - just thought i would drop in to your new thread and wish you well - seeing as I have not read the book and don't intend to ;)

also, how come tango posters generally come out at night? you guys should be dancing.....
 
hi Elise

hah! first thing in the morning here (or almost first thing - have to pretend to do some other stuff first!)

and as for the other thing - well if I could dance more, I would dance more - but it's just as well in a way that I cant feed my habit ...

anyway, revenons a nos moutons (or - let's get BOT.. )
 
i AM interested in what defines Milonguero style; though I suspect the answer is to find a teacher who knows and take a private lesson.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZTm2TqNAaI

since I know these people, but they're not as close as I would like; I thought this was worth showing; I have been watching it over and over to try and establish what makes it in terms of steps weight/axis movement; iy seems to have small sacadas; lots of crosses in front & behind and a lot else such as milonguero crosses.
("sweet little wishes and pretty blue dreams" )
 
Well if you can find one! But you're right - it does seem to mean different things to different folks.

A good example is the video you've mentioned. Now to my eyes that's simply salon tango. Yes it's nice dancing. Yes the couple are in close embrace. But it just *lacks* something.

If I had to put my finger on it , it would be this : that for the most part, the man is leading on the major beats in the music. He is not really following the cadence in the way the old time milongueros do. He does occasionally follow accents in the music, but it just doesnt seem enough.

Compare now to the couple in the first video on this page :
http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_5video/19papel.htm

what musicality! they are dancing to the "compas" - the cadence of the music. That to me defines "milonguero"...
 
I had read it long ago but only the 2001 part, where somewhere there is the definition of a milonguero, someone who will need two hours to drive from his place [in BsAs] to the milonga [in BsAs too] because his ego prevents him from admitting he's lost and from asking someone.

I remember reading something too about the percentage of retired military men among milongueros. Astiz, Videla, were they good leaders?
 
Captain Jep said:
Well if you can find one! But you're right - it does seem to mean different things to different folks.

A good example is the video you've mentioned. Now to my eyes that's simply salon tango. Yes it's nice dancing. Yes the couple are in close embrace. But it just *lacks* something.

If I had to put my finger on it , it would be this : that for the most part, the man is leading on the major beats in the music. He is not really following the cadence in the way the old time milongueros do. He does occasionally follow accents in the music, but it just doesnt seem enough.

Compare now to the couple in the first video on this page :
http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_5video/19papel.htm

what musicality! they are dancing to the "compas" - the cadence of the music. That to me defines "milonguero"...
Click to expand...
I would say that both yours and the prior video would both be examples of the "milonguero" style. I just think that your example has better dancers.
 
newbie said:
I had read it long ago but only the 2001 part, where somewhere there is the definition of a milonguero, someone who will need two hours to drive from his place [in BsAs] to the milonga [in BsAs too] because his ego prevents him from admitting he's lost and from asking someone.
Click to expand...

Yes wouldnt surprise me :)

I also read sections of this book a long while back - before it had the videos added. And I found it difficult to get past some of the messages in it - you know the usual ones - that you couldnt be good at tango unless you'd spent years studying it, that you would never "understand" tango in the way the old timers did.

As I also said before, a lot of the milongueros are now old, and I felt looking at them that this was showing in their dancing. Some of them look like they have had hip operations. So what relevance did all of this have to me? I'll dance that way when I am 80 too, but not now, thanks!

It also looked far too simple. Like it would probably be boring both for the leader and for the follower.

However ... I've now realised that this is me showing arrogance in just the way that the milongueros are often accused of doing. Just because they are old doesnt mean that they dont have something to offer. I am beginning to think that in fact that I have been missing the point. There is a lot more to their style than it appears. It's not just "close embrace/ocho cortado" and you're there...
 
Captain Jep said:
So what to you defines this as "milonguero"? Just that they are in close embrace?
Click to expand...
Basically. I've been told that it's a subset of what some call "salon". The dancers only do steps that do not require the embrace to be opened up. The reality of things though, is that not all milongueros danced the same way, and I don't think they ever used that term. It was all just tango to them. Of course it's also true that most milongueros had excellent musicality.
 
Captain Jep said:
Well if you can find one! But you're right - it does seem to mean different things to different folks.

A good example is the video you've mentioned. Now to my eyes that's simply salon tango. Yes it's nice dancing. Yes the couple are in close embrace. But it just *lacks* something.

If I had to put my finger on it , it would be this : that for the most part, the man is leading on the major beats in the music. He is not really following the cadence in the way the old time milongueros do. He does occasionally follow accents in the music, but it just doesnt seem enough.

Compare now to the couple in the first video on this page :
http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_5video/19papel.htm

what musicality! they are dancing to the "compas" - the cadence of the music. That to me defines "milonguero"...
Click to expand...


they describe it as milonguero on their website. (Tango West) but musicality is something more personal.
 
It also looked far too simple.
Click to expand...
"Milonguero" isn't about how it looks, it's about how it feels.
You won't get it, probably ever I'd say, watching YouTube or a video, and written descriptions don't quite work either.
Bear in mind, too, that the term itself is very imprecise, so it can mean lots of different things.
 
:) Well I knew we would have this "what does the word mean?" debate.

But that's why I wanted to focus on the book. Whatever it means in terms of dancing, the word "milonguero" also refers to the old timers in the milongas. Lets look at what they're doing. How does that compare to our usual Friday-night salon dancing?

If it helps I will make some observations :

- "Salon" dancers tend to "mark" a musical phrase (an eight bar) by dancing from major beat to major beat. But I notice in the TLC vids something more interesting is happening - the first two beats in the next bar are "left overs" from the previous bar and the milongueros are using them as a bridge from one bar to the next. Hence the dancing has more "flow" about it.

- There is very little "breaking of the embrace" going on. In fact they tend to avoid any dissociation in their dancing (eg cross system walks/ forward ochos)
 
Very astute observations!

I've never counted "bars", but I do feel the phrases in music. This has come about through much listening and dancing. You just KNOW when a phrase is going to end.
In looking at music scores, it's clear that even in something like waltz the three beats are not restricted to "bars".

It's possible to be very creative within an embrace that never opens, but, it requires a real commitment from both partners to achieve that degree of intimate connection.
The man can only put it out there and wait for something to come back. If it doesn't it doesn't.

Finally, this from an interview with Richard Powers...
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]
That was the first of nine Stanford Tango Weeks. Four years later other organizers began to run tango weeks, based on the Stanford prototype, so in a continued mission to offer dance opportunities not offered elsewhere, I added an emphasis on personal vernacular styles. That was the 1995 "Year of the Milongueros" when I brought in seven Argentine tangueros to teach their personal styles. One of these milonguero styles came to be called "close embrace" style, while others still call it "milonguero style."
Q: What feedback did you receive from the participants? I ask because there is the opinion that Americans are less comfortable with the more intimate close embrace. Do you agree?
Richard: It was mixed. That's one thing I've always loved about the tango community. Each dancer has his or own individual reasons for liking the dance. It's not a uniform fad dynamic. So some thought it was too close and some loved it. Even though your question was about North Americans being less comfortable with close embrace, I should also mention that back then several of the Argentine masters also thought close embrace tango was too close.
http://www.tangopulse.net/interviews/richard_powers.htm
 
Captain Jep said:
:) Well I knew we would have this "what does the word mean?" debate.

But that's why I wanted to focus on the book. Whatever it means in terms of dancing, the word "milonguero" also refers to the old timers in the milongas. Lets look at what they're doing. How does that compare to our usual Friday-night salon dancing?

If it helps I will make some observations :

- "Salon" dancers tend to "mark" a musical phrase (an eight bar) by dancing from major beat to major beat. But I notice in the TLC vids something more interesting is happening - the first two beats in the next bar are "left overs" from the previous bar and the milongueros are using them as a bridge from one bar to the next. Hence the dancing has more "flow" about it.

- There is very little "breaking of the embrace" going on. In fact they tend to avoid any dissociation in their dancing (eg cross system walks/ forward ochos)
Click to expand...


Actually there is cross system, but they tend to use it on the left outside...I see that lots in couples who are dancing in this style (regarless of their musicality acumen) (and the couple in the TLC video does this also).

Steve mentioned it's not how it looks, but how it feels...with the primary focus being the connection. I guess you could look at it as the close physical connection point enhancing the emotional, and so maybe in that sense you could say that by focusing on the feeling of the close embrace, and doing the extra work to maintain it, also affects how it looks...because, as you notice, there are things that aren't going to work in a non-dissociated embrace, and so you have to jettison some of the vocabulary and focus on other ways to express the music (generally in smaller, more rhythmic ways).

Interestingly, I just took a Blues workshop, and they have open work and close embrace as well, and we got a similar talk...open work allows for more flamboyant movement and expression but when dancing close you let that go and focus on small, more intimate rhythmic movement that may not be perceptible to anyone watching becasue it's more about the personal connection.
 
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