Teacher/student power dynamics, authority, communication, respect

[ProgressNotPerfection]

This started in a thread about how to improve balance while wearing high heels, but the conversation quickly went in a different direction, so I moved over here instead. I searched through several DF threads that I thought might work, but they all seemed to include issues of personal or romantic or flirtatious or harassing behavior...and that is not at all what I’m talking about below.

Talking back???? Talking back??????? Listening to the preferences and recommendations of someone else (even a “teacher”), evaluating them, reaching a different conclusion, and taking action accordingly, is not “talking back.”

Cal, you have much more experience than we do, so you are more confident in your own judgment and expertise in these areas. OTOH, worddancer is a comparative newcomer (2-3 years I think) & I am a complete newcomer (less than 1 year). I won’t speak for her, but here’s how it feels to me: I look up to my teachers, both Pro & IFP. I genuinely believe they know better than I do what I ought to be doing in just about every aspect in the field of ballroom dance.

When my Standard court shoes recently got too big to be useful (even with lots of moleskin lining & sole inserts), I told Pro I was going to replace them. He said, “good! Now you can get actual Smooth shoes, with two inch heels.” I asked, “only two inch? But I have two and a half inch now.” He replied that 2” heels are better because they provide more stability & allow for greater rise. When I showed up a couple weeks later with my new 2”-heeled Smooth shoes, he smiled & said approvingly, “good girl.” I glowed. Normally, if a man calls me a “girl,” I hear it as a paternalistic or possibly even demeaning diminutive (like speaking to a cocker spaniel). But in this context, I liked hearing him say it.

If I had gotten 2.5” heels again, or Standard court shoes instead of Smooth, it would have felt to me like I was “talking back” to him. I would have felt like I was defying him – even though he didn’t tell me that I HAD to buy 2” Smooth shoes.

(If I already had years of dance training, I might have explained to him that while wearing my last pair of Smooth shoes, I slid the heel of my right shoe into the open side of the left shoe during an open gold comp routine, causing me to fall on my rear; and therefore I would NOT be buying any more Smooth shoes, but would stick with Standard instead. And that wouldn't feel like "talking back," because I'd be speaking to him more like an equal – or at least certainly closer to an equal than I am now. But I’m not there yet.)

Pro recently asked me, “did you practice yesterday?” I said, “no – I had a lesson yesterday.” He raised an eyebrow & said, “yes, I know. But did you practice after the lesson?” I lowered my eyes and replied, “no,” wishing mightily that I could say yes (I had plenty of time in which I could have practiced; I just didn’t). He didn’t say anything critical, or in fact say anything else at all, but I FELT like he was telling me I should have practiced after my lesson, and in future I should do so. The next time he asks the same question, I want to be able to reply affirmatively. And if I don’t, it will feel to me like I’m “talking back” to him.

At a recent virtual lesson with IFP, she asked if I had been doing one of the exercises she gave me on how to get into proper frame. I confessed that I had not done that particular one in a couple weeks. She didn’t say anything critical, but looked a little disappointed, and said, “ok, well, let’s review it again now.” That felt to me like “talking back” to her, insofar as it suggests that I don’t value her instruction enough to work on what she gave me to do.

When IFP & I first started working together, she very strongly suggested that I needed to wear practice shoes for lessons, and offered several reasons why. She didn’t say I HAD to buy some, but was definite in her opinion that I should. And a few lessons later, when she saw that I was wearing my new practice shoes, she clapped her hands and said “oh, yayyy!” with a big grin. I glowed again. If I had continued wearing performance shoes for our lessons, even though I could afford to buy high-quality practice shoes as she had recommended, it would have felt to me like I was “talking back” to her.

Back in February, when I was shopping for my very first Smooth gown, we had a good discussion HERE on DF, in which we talked about (among other things) the level of advice and input needed or wanted from a pro WRT our comp dresses. I’ve realized that in my case, what I currently want is a very high level of advice and input from my pros, and not just regarding my dresses.

So when worddancer said this:

Ok you folks that talk back to your pros all the time ;-) our relationship is already a constant power struggle because we're both very stubborn. Though most of the time I give in, since y'know, he's the teacher.

I completely understand what she meant, and I feel the same way. Although in my case, there's not much of an active power struggle – I just defer to my pros on pretty much everything. I am paying them for their judgment, knowledge, opinions, advice, expertise – the works. I don’t have enough of my own knowledge in their field to argue with them; in fact, I WANT to be told what to do & what to wear & how to move & everything else. It's such a relief to NOT have to make all the decisions. Let someone else be in charge for a change!

This might be different in the future, as I gain more experience. I’ve already gotten “brave” enough to ask a lot more questions, even some that might sound like I’m challenging my teachers’ authority. But so far, once they answer my questions, I do what they tell me to do – even when they don’t precisely *tell* me to do it, but merely make their opinions clear.

Now, of course this would be completely different, if a teacher offered suggestions on topics unrelated to my dance journey. E.g., if IFP said I should use a Dell laptop instead of my HP laptop, I would listen to her reasoning, consult with my employee who handles all the IT for my office, and decide for myself whether the Dell or HP better suited my needs. Or if Pro said I should feed my dog a certain type of food, I would listen to his reasoning, consult with my vet, evaluate my dog’s history of GI issues, and decide for myself what type of food to give my dog. But if Pro says I should spend 15 minutes each day outside to get some Vitamin D, and do daily neck stretches or heel raises or push-ups or any other exercise, my response is going to be "yes, sir."* Any other reply feels to me like "talking back."

So I’m curious about other people’s experience and feelings on this topic. Is it a beginner thing? Or a personality thing? I suspect in my case, it’s about 70% due to being a beginner & 30% due to the “teacher-pleaser” personality trait.


*Unless he yells, "don't call me sir! I work for a living!" If that ever happens, I'll pick a different form of address.

 

[Purr]

A couple of observations:

1) This isn't talking back.
2) You respect pro's opinions and take their advice.
3) You don't want to disappoint pro's expectations.
4) You want pro's approval.

 

[fiesta0618]

Interesting topic. Had to think about it for a long time. In the end, I decided that I couldn't answer the prompt directly as you wrote it.

Instead, I thought about what a healthy and effective student-teacher relationship looks like from both sides, and how that ideally plays out in the context of dance. Here's what I thought.

• A good teacher welcomes challenges.
  A student that challenges you is taking responsibility for their own growth, which is critical for advancing beyond beginner-level skills. Their questions also shed light on how they process information, and what they have understood about the things you're teaching, allowing you to tailor your message to their needs. In addition, every challenge you answer is an opportunity to both establish your authority and mastery of the subject, as well build rapport and trust.
  
  
• A good student questions everything that they do not understand.
  Accepting your teacher's expertise on their subject is perfectly fine. They are experts! But it is critical as a student that you understand WHY they make the recommendations they do, even at a shallow level. The more you understand the core reasoning behind a recommendation, the better you will be able to extrapolate that reasoning to novel contexts when your teacher is not present.
  
  
• A great teacher knows when and how to NOT answer a question.
  This is the main thing that differentiates a teacher from a mere subject matter expert. It is impossible to learn a skill at full breadth and depth all at once; there are invariably stages of understanding to pass through, where each stage is an incomplete picture. A great teacher knows how to manage these stages of partial understanding in a way that neither frustrates the student nor feeds the Illusion of Knowing. In many cases, that requires deferring a question or only providing a partial answer.

In the context of dance, it means that students should be questioning their coaches all the time.
If the coach is frustrated by that, then they are not a good teacher, and you should work with someone else.
If, instead, their response to questions is to get totally derailed in minutia, then they are an OK-but-not-great teacher. Worth working with, but you, as the student, will need to manage the complexity of what you're being told (e.g., "This is too much for me to process right now. Please give me the five-second quick take, and let's move on")

The dynamic of questioning the teacher will never change, no matter how experienced you get. What does change over time is what you ask about and how the conversation proceeds.

You will ask fewer and fewer questions about physical things, like "why am I moving this body part in this way?" You gradually build a body of knowledge about the hows and whys of movement until your coach's recommendations naturally follow from that base and require no questioning.

Also, as you progress,the questions you ask your coach will take on more and more the character of a discussion between peers. One is clearly senior and the other clearly junior, but as your core knowledge grows, the extrapolations and leaps you make become more and more trustworthy. Your coach's opinion and judgment is still superior 95% of the time, but a good teacher will want to know how YOU connect ideas because it can help them understand their own subject even better. Teaching is a feedback loop, not a one-way street.

***************

How does this apply to my and my relationship with my coach?

My coach qualifies as a great teacher, according to the two traits I listed above. As someone who teaches as a career myself, I would not have stood working long-term with a teacher less competent than me.

For my part, I try to fill the role of good student, as described above. I take nothing at face value if it doesn't comport with my current understanding. Almost always, what we discover is that my understanding was slightly flawed and my coach hadn't realized my misunderstanding.

After seven years, my coach is still the clear authority, especially with respect to the artistry of dance and dance biomechanics. But she will often ask my opinion about psychological or musical concepts, because my years of questions have demonstrated that I have a strong foundation in these that was built in a totally different way, and has some interesting applications in dance.

 

[Well Rounded]

All of the above.

 

[lucia_l]

• A great teacher knows when and how to NOT answer a question.
  This is the main thing that differentiates a teacher from a mere subject matter expert. It is impossible to learn a skill at full breadth and depth all at once; there are invariably stages of understanding to pass through, where each stage is an incomplete picture. A great teacher knows how to manage these stages of partial understanding in a way that neither frustrates the student nor feeds the Illusion of Knowing. In many cases, that requires deferring a question or only providing a partial answer.

I like this. Reading it made me reflect back on "Owner of Former Studio Owner" (OFSO) vs my current pro "New Young Guy". At the former studio, my lessons were mostly with "Old Young Guy". But I tried three or four with (OFS). I remember one particular lesson which was very shortly after a guest coach had visited the studio. That guest post had been picked and invited by OFS. (It was a while ago, but the lesson may have been a day before-- or a week before. They were close enough in time that I remembered, or at least thought I remembered, what the coach had said.)

During this particular lesson, OFSO instructed me to do something in a way that was different from what I thought the guest coach had said during the recent visit. So I said something like "Oh. That seems different from what 'guest coach' said yesterday. Is there a reason to do it one way rather than the other." OFSO's response to that question was something like, "I don't care. Do it my way." I would characterize his tone as either "curt" or "snappy".

In my opinion, that was not the right way to answer that question-- especially not in context. After all, OFSO had heavily marketed how we should take sessions from Guest Coach. We'd spent money on the coaching etc.

It may well be that OFS response differently to other students questions. But... that response to my question resulted in me not valuing lessons from OFS. So, I stopped taking any from OFSO.

In contrast, New Young Guy (NYG) does sometimes avoid certain questions. But generally, the answer is more like.... I ask something about what to do with my arms, and the answer is, "That's important. But for now, just focus on Feet". (Or posture. Or whatever we are working on.) Other times, NYG does answer my question. That strikes me as the right way to deflect an issue that I either can't address now or that might derail progress on our current focus. It's also respectful in acknowledging the question is not stupid or unwelcome-- just that we aren't going to deal with it now.

FWIW: I've done the exact same thing when teaching. One in a fluid mechanics lecture a student asked something during the last 2 minutes of class. My answer, was "Great question. I'm not going to answer that now!" I was going to stop right there, but I saw a look of shock on the whole classes faces. So I added, "The reason is the answer to that according to the syllabus, Friday's 1 hour lecture addresses that question, and it will take the entire hour!". The students laughed.

 

[Cal]

From my perspective, I grew up in a family in which there were a variety of beliefs with regard to religion and politics, so from a very young age my experience has been that there is usually more than one option available to achieve any given goal. If I asked questions about differences, the adults usually seemed pleased that I was interested, and they answered my questions, and gave me ideas. And nobody ever got in a huff if I wanted to try out the “other” side.

My best teachers have always been the ones who treated teaching as an “exchange of ideas” rather than solely as “imparting knowledge.” Those “exchange of ideas” teachers always seemed to be pleased if students wanted to explore further something that they said – they seemed to take it as a sign that the student was listening and engaged. The more pleased they were, the more questions I'd ask, and the more ideas got exchanged. For them, “how” to think was more important than “what” to think. Quite often, I did agree with their “what” to think, but not always.

The first time I ran across an “imparting knowledge” teacher was with my 5th Grade teacher. The “what” to think was paramount to him. He expected compliance. He did not like questions. Any attempt to ask a question that related to a different point of view was treated as a challenge to his authority, and resulted in a reduction in grades. Sometimes, I did agree with his “what” to think, but if I wasn’t allowed to ask questions about other points of view, it was sometimes hard to trust that “what.” At a parent/teacher conference the teacher reported to my parents that I was the kind of non-obedient student who “talked back” to teachers. 5th Grade was a long, miserable, school year, but I began to learn about the danger of asking questions, and the danger of NOT asking questions, and I began to learn about conformity, resistance, and endurance. (Note: I didn’t realize it at the time, but behind the scenes my parents, and other teachers, had my back. I mean, c’mon, I was - what- 10 years old?)

For dance instruction? I want the “exchange of ideas” teachers. And, because I’m not “just” a student, but also a “customer”, I have the power of the purse to hire pros who can give me the kind of instruction that I want.

Likewise, if my pros don’t like to be “questioned” with regard to the material they are teaching, they are free to tell me that I should find instruction elsewhere.

 

[worddancer]

So since I got used as an example on heels. Please note that I only wore the smooth competition heels after 1 year of resisting wearing competition heels. Mainly because I have a competition next month (in theory).

So it wasn't like CleanPrecisePro said: "Wear heels" And I did.
We literally had a power struggle on heels for a while. I dance in half inch practice shoes for a long time. He hated those shoes. And when I switched to 1.5 inch Aida practice shoes, my balance got much better.

I finally confronted him again on Monday and we agreed that I will continue to wear the smooth heels until the competition, and that after that, I will wear it once every 3 lessons.

Every teacher/student relationship is different. I know, because I have about 4 ballroom teachers. Mine with WarmFuzzyPro is very casual, I'm constantly messaging him on FB. It's more peer level.

CleanPrecisePro is not American, and is very bossy and dominant. I'm very bossy and dominant. We have a fiesty relationship and other people have commented on the "brutal honesty" that goes on between us. On the bright side, we joke all the time, and we laugh so much. There is a lot of joy in our lessons. To the point that our agreement for our lessons is "Intense and Joyful." Yes we have a lesson motto.

I celebrate my pro's and mine relationship, especially in this age of Pandemic where you learn to value things and not take things for granted.

Does it mean I defer more to him than I usually do in real life? Yes. But I'm willing to do that because he is a great teacher.

Does it mean every 10th lesson or so, our heads butt when I don't defer to him? Yes. But he compromises too. Today we had a lesson and it was our first ever "play" only lesson. Because he could tell that he had been pushing me too hard. I had so much fun. We argentine tangoed!

 

[Cal]

Literal conversation between me, a student in his 20's, and a visiting coach.

Me: we are working on XYZ.
Student: yeah she is saying XYZ but I think LMNO
Coach: she is right.
Student: But if I did ABC then PQR I could do this, and then that, and then I think maybe...
Coach: she is right.
Student: But see I think EFG. Because HIJK and So and So said RSTUV.
Coach: she is right, do XYZ.
Student: But if I did ABC then PQR I could do this, and then that, and then I think maybe...
Coach: SHAADUUPPP! There are world champions younger than you! Shut! Up!

I can’t help but wonder if the Student would have responded differently if he had a Male Pro who had told him that XYZ was the plan. In that scenario I wonder if he would have just said “OK, let’s go”.

And we don't know if the Coach was male or female, and if that factored (consciously or unconsciously) into the Student's response.

All the dynamics can get very complicated, to be sure.

 

[lucia_l]

Cal,
My pro described a young (pre-teen or teenage) student as responding more or less the way Larinda describes above. So that happens to male pros too.

 

[Cal]

Cal,
My pro described a young (pre-teen or teenage) student as responding more or less the way Larinda describes above. So that happens to male pros too.

Was the Student male or female?

 

[lucia_l]

Cal,
The argumentative student was a girl.

 

[Joe]

Some people just like to be contrary.

 

[bry_dancer]

I think a lot of it boils down to personality and trust. My personality is such that I like to dig deep and ask questions and really understand, but sometimes it can lead me to over-analyzing when I should just be doing the work.

When I first started with my current pro she had me do things very differently than my previous pro and at first I pushed back and questioned a lot, but she always had very good answers as to why. At first I would even question if there were there hidden financial motives involved? But after nearly a year of dancing with her and seeing the progress and results I have learned to trust her implicitly. She really has my best interest at heart.

Sometimes I will still argue with her about footwork or technique though just because it's fun to rile her up

 

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Some people just like to be contrary.

No we don't!

 

[Cal]

Larinda and Lucia - thanks for the follow-up information. It’s useful to know that the younger generation appears to approach male/female teachers in the same manner when they raise their questions and arguments. (Over the years, I’ve witnessed some adults closer to my generation who DO treat them differently.)