Teacher's ability level

[pygmalion]

Just curious. I've been thinking about dance teachers a lot lately, as you know, and now I have a question.

At least in ballroom studios, often new, new students take their first lessons from new, new teachers, with just a little training under their belts. And as the students progress, good studios will often "promote" the students to more experienced teachers. I've been wondering about this process and whether it's really what's best for the student. Does that set-up work to the best advantage of the student, or would it be better to start with the best teacher possible? Or, on the other hand, would beginning lessons with a world-class teacher be overkill?

I don't think there are right or wrong answers, here. I'm just wondering what others think.

 

[Sagitta]

I think that the better the teacher the better the experience the beginner learning a lesson will have. I've had that experience for lindy and while both the good and world-class instructors taught the same things the world class teacher was better able to communicate the same concepts and pass them on more efficiently!! Apart from the Cornell ballroom club classes all my lessons are with experienced teachers, so I don't suffer from the "new teacher" issue. Since Cornell ballroom is only 50 a year I believe that's not an issue for me.

 

[pygmalion]

I know what you mean Sagitta.

I'll never forget how simple and understandable complex device physics became, as soon as I took seminars with from some world class physicists at MIT. Taking class from the very top people is a totally different experience.

And I try not to compare my dance teachers. I've had many, and I can honestly say that every one of them, even the least experienced one, has had something unique and valuable to teach me about dance. But, truth be told, I sometimes wonder where I'd be if I'd started with a great teacher, instead of discovering one after a year and a half of not-so-great teachers. Or where would I be if I'd started lessons with my current coach back then, instead of last week. No point in looking back. I just wonder. And, on the other hand, if I'd started with a world class coach, would I have survived the early stages, or would I have become intimidated and quit?

Hence my question. I don't think there's a clear-cut right answer, at least for me. ... Yet. :wink: :lol:

 

[Sagitta]

There isn't a clear-cut answer for me too. I always go into any experience to make the most of it, and I try not to look back and have regrets about what could have been. Such as, how different it would have been if I started dancing earlier!! Always emphasize the positive!

 

[dragon3085]

I think it is a good idea. For one you have to remember the advanced students too. If you have an advanced teacher teaching a beginning student you are taking him or her away from teaching an advanced student. Now any instructor can probably teach the beginner but only certain instructors may be able to help out the advanced student.

 

[pygmalion]

I should probably save this for later in the thread, but I have to go out later today, so here goes. I'll toss out this idea now.

It's quite possible to outgrow a teacher, if you are an ambitious and serious dance student. When I had been dancing about a year, I bought a coaching lesson for myself and my then teacher with a visiting high-level coach. You know what that coach told my teacher, right in the middle of the lesson? "A student should never get ahead of the teacher." Direct quote. The truth was I was outgrowing that teacher, and both the coach and I knew it. I was interested in serious dance study and technique, and that teacher was interested in selling me lessons, and oh yeah, teaching me enough new patterns to keep me happy. Didn't work.

There aren't enough patterns to keep you happy, if you want to be a great dancer. (Okay. I'm off the soapbox. :lol: )

 

[dragon3085]

I should probably save this for later in the thread, but I have to go out later today, so here goes. I'll toss out this idea now.

It's quite possible to outgrow a teacher, if you are an ambitious and serious dance student. When I had been dancing about a year, I bought a coaching lesson for myself and my then teacher with a visiting high-level coach. You know what that coach told my teacher, right in the middle of the lesson? "A student should never get ahead of the teacher." Direct quote. The truth was I was outgrowing that teacher, and both the coach and I knew it. I was interested in serious dance study and technique, and that teacher was interested in selling me lessons, and oh yeah, teaching me enough new patterns to keep me happy. Didn't work.

There aren't enough patterns to keep you happy, if you want to be a great dancer. (Okay. I'm off the soapbox. :lol: )

I had the same experience, only after my third instructor I felt I was ready for my current teacher. It will be many years before I outgrow her I think. But I did wait before I requested her- until I thought I gotten all the basic stuff that any other of the less experienced teachers could teach me, down well enough so as not to waste her time or mine.

 

[peachexploration]

There aren't enough patterns to keep you happy, if you want to be a great dancer. (Okay. I'm off the soapbox. :lol: )

I definitely HEAR you on this one. So true.

 

[bordertangoman]

I should probably save this for later in the thread, but I have to go out later today, so here goes. I'll toss out this idea now.

It's quite possible to outgrow a teacher, if you are an ambitious and serious dance student. When I had been dancing about a year, I bought a coaching lesson for myself and my then teacher with a visiting high-level coach. You know what that coach told my teacher, right in the middle of the lesson? "A student should never get ahead of the teacher." Direct quote. The truth was I was outgrowing that teacher, and both the coach and I knew it. I was interested in serious dance study and technique, and that teacher was interested in selling me lessons, and oh yeah, teaching me enough new patterns to keep me happy. Didn't work.

There aren't enough patterns to keep you happy, if you want to be a great dancer. (Okay. I'm off the soapbox. :lol: )

thereby hangs a tale.

I think adult pupils should take resposibility for what they learn.

There are cases of the wren flying off the eagle's shoulder. But there are plenty of coaches who train athletes and probably dancers whose ability exceeds their own.
Being a good dancer doesn't necessarily make a good teacher. I think there must be qualities that a teacher has, which, in my opinion, should include a sense of humour, patience, as well as clarity, structure and flexibility. Like the dance itself you have to respond to what is happening not what you might have planned. Sometimes people grasp something that it took me months to learn and vice versa.
I also work very intuitively and haptically, so instruction is often non-verbal. (But I'm giving away my secrets so I'll end here)

 

[Jmatthew]

I can't say I've become a good enough dancer to comment on this definitively from a dance perspective. I still crash the freebie newbie lessons before some dances because there's usually SOMETHING I can pick up, even if it's just refocusing on some basics.

BUT, from my martial arts days, I definately remember there being a LOT of trainers who were less talented than their students, and could do a lot less moves. What those trainers brought to the students was generally considered more important though, and that was a continual, consistent presence that kept the students's foundation solid, and kept the student working, without getting caught up in flashy new moves all the time. The trainer was also better able to evaluate the students ability to do new things and the success at which they were doing.

Of course, you could find a teacher who knew a lot more moves and better technique than you and is able to keep you focused, your foundation solid, and accurately evaluate your performance, but if I had to select either/or, I'd definately want the solid foundation over flashy moves.

But, like I said, I'm not even close to that stage in dancing yet, so feel free to tell me how wrong I am.

 

[pygmalion]

Wrong? Right? Nope. It's about having an interesting conversation. :wink: :lol:

And you bring up good points about the importance of focusing on basics. That's true in dance as well as martial arts. 8)

 

[pygmalion]

So here's my take, after two weeks of lessons with the best smooth teacher I've ever had. Get the best teacher you can afford, time-wise and money-wise.

It's probably overkill in the very beginning stages, but good dance technique starts early. So, whatever teacher you get, ask for word of mouth about their abilities, strengths and weaknesses before you commit to them long term. And once you've decided on a teacher, trust them completely, and let them help you get where you want. But reassess your goals often, to make sure you're still going where you want.

 

[Vin]

I don't teach dance, yet,
but I do teach math as part of an graduate assistantship and have a few insights. As a teacher seeing about 40 new students per class it would be downright arrogant of me to think that I would always have more natural talent than anyone in my class. I have quickly learned that in every class there will usually be one or two students who are quicker than I with basic algebra or whatever.
What I do bring to the table and this is what every teacher should bring to the table is experience. If my students say I am having a problem with doing x, I should be able to quickly point out that they are forgetting about doing y first. It is the same thing with dance, if I am having trouble leading a cross-body lead the instructor should be able to tell me that I am probably not opening my stance far enough on the 6(5) count. In my opinion any competent instructor should be able to.
All of this is in order to help the instructor work out issues 1 and 2 above.

1) Explain new material from basic principles(ie those things assumed known before hand).
2) Know or be able to predict the common mistakes inherent with the new material.
3) Understand the new materials place among similar subject matter.

Natural talent is not a prerequisite for being a good instructor, in fact I often believe that those with natural talent are hindered when it comes to teaching as they often lack the detailed study of a subject that is required of those less skilled.
This being said when you get to advanced stages of learning anything you can not learn from anyone but the best, unfortunately those people who are the best have usually forgotten, or maybe never even knew the effort required to learn from the basics. This is why I believe the most talented in any area often make horrible instructors.
I think the optimal way to train new instructors is to have then start out by being a sort of teacher's aide, or maybe a dance tutor. To start you don't want to have the responsibility of being the student's primary source of information but rather you want to help them to work out some kinks within there dancing.

 

[pygmalion]

Some great observations, Vin.

I've had good, bad and mediocre teachers. The good ones all had enough experience under their belts to understand common errors, and also to explain things from a variety of perspectives. If I don't get it, they can teach it to me from a different angle.

And I also agree with what you say about good teachers being able to "break it down," so to speak. Natural dancers sometimes haven't had to break it down, so it may be difficult to explain to a student. On the other hand, I've gotten some great "instruction" by watching natural dancers dance, and copying their visual example.

 

[dancin_feet]

Not wanting to sound like a snob here, but since I started with my current studio, my instructor has been the supervisor of the studio. I feel I am now to the point that I could not achieve anything taking a lesson from some of the other teachers, in fact my instructor had a week off and it was suggested that I do an exchange lesson with another instructor. I told them I couldn't make it, because I didn't see the point of spending private lesson money with the instructor they offered.

I believe that "new" instructors HAVE to take beginner classes, otherwise there is nothing else for them to do. I have always found though that the supervisor is always nearby to pick up on something or if the new instructor has a question, so it's not like they are completely thrown in the deep end. Bit annoying when it is during my private lesson, but then I try to take advantage by watching what he does and learning from that as well.