Teaching a pivot?

An ocho doesn't always have to come from the side step. As leading comes from the chest (or 'heart' as I prefer to term it) then it is possible to lead an ocho without the leader having to even move the feet and even on one leg. But yes, it does "appear" easier if the ocho follows a side-step.
I think that Heather is right on. The most basic lead in Tango (IMHO) is a simple weight change with no step. Thus, for example, if the couple starts with the man's weight on his right foot and the woman's on her left, the man can lead the woman's weight onto her right foot while remaining on his right and thus immediately execute a back ocho to his left with the woman "ochoing" (is that a word????) by stepping back right with her left foot.
 
I think that Heather is right on. The most basic lead in Tango (IMHO) is a simple weight change with no step. Thus, for example, if the couple starts with the man's weight on his right foot and the woman's on her left, the man can lead the woman's weight onto her right foot while remaining on his right and thus immediately execute a back ocho to his left with the woman "ochoing" (is that a word????) by stepping back right with her left foot.

in my experience, those are actually more difficult than using the step and weight change method...with the side step being a good opportunity for the guy to make his "secret" weight change while the lady is still resettling herself from the side step....doing it directly with no step for a complete beginner often causes too much "noise" and you get inadvertent weight changes. The lead still, in practicality, has to lead the weight change (or his own without telegraphing it) and that tends to be easier from the side step when people first learn.
 
I guess my concern over this is that you can get into "auto-ocho" mode, or robo-ochoing.

Each ocho, after all, should be led - and if you get too used to patterns of continuous ochos, you'll be into Evil Anticipation Land.

Which is why I wanted to isolate the whole "pivot then step" bit, so forcing the leader to actually lead a pivot, but without worrying about the before/after bits.

well- I guess I was thinking in terms of actual partner dancing, and just using less pivot. As for solo excersizes, the only ones I know have already been mentioned.
 
Just wrote this fpr another thread.
"Force" or a push directed at that axis produces movement in a straight line.
"Force" or a push directed somewhat off that vertical axis will produce a rotational movement, sort of like a door on a hinge.

What do you all think about the "hinged door" idea? This occured to me when I was "showing" someone the difference in the movement of the torso when leading either a forward step, or a back step, in the giro/molinete.
It is, I think, related to explaining how to lead/follow ochos, too.

Does it seem like a simple enough concept?

I'd like to add that, unfortunately, the weight change is so poorly understood, based on my experience, that asking someone to lead their partner to change weight using their torso, is something that I would not ask a beginner to do.
I love doing stuff like that, but rarely do because of the very mixed results.

Getting people movement, such as the ocho, without their own movement (ie stepping) I would expect to be a tough deal, since many intermediate dancers seem to have a problem with it.

Now, I'll have to go back and read the whole thread!
 
I guess my concern over this is that you can get into "auto-ocho" mode, or robo-ochoing....
I have found that "auto-ocho" mode primarily happens if my partner is leaning on me, especially in open. She then can interpret absence of a lead as a lead since she is taking herself off axis. A similar thing can happen if she locks her frame into me rather than allowing a flexible frame. In that case she might interpret a body motion of mine as a lead when it was not so intended. This especially can happen in open if she is pushing on the front of my shoulder or bicep with her left hand. In this case I will typically move into close embrace for the rest of the tanda, and put the follow on my "only dance close embrace with that woman" virtual-list or perhaps even on my "don't dance with her 'till she learns to manage her axis" virtual-list.
 
An ocho doesn't always have to come from the side step. As leading comes from the chest (or 'heart' as I prefer to term it) then it is possible to lead an ocho without the leader having to even move the feet and even on one leg. But yes, it does "appear" easier if the ocho follows a side-step.

Is it really possible to teach ochos without emphasising the heart-to-heart connection? If you dont dissociate you're not really dancing, are you?
 
I guess my concern over this is that you can get into "auto-ocho" mode, or robo-ochoing.

Each ocho, after all, should be led - and if you get too used to patterns of continuous ochos, you'll be into Evil Anticipation Land.

Which is why I wanted to isolate the whole "pivot then step" bit, so forcing the leader to actually lead a pivot, but without worrying about the before/after bits.
Surely, auto-ochoing is a concern.

But if you're talking about as basic a thing as "how to pivot," I'd say just to get them doing something close first, than to overwhelm with technique and blah blah blah right away. It's easier to get people moving and to make tweaks to things along the way, then to paralyze them by making sure they're doing things correctly and perfectly to begin with. Continual, incremental refinement seems to be a good thing.

As for how to lead it... Speaking as a non-leading follower, what I feel is dependent on the type of ocho being led. If he's leading "crossed-back"/non-pivoting ochos, I feel him moving forward and side to side without changing the angle of his chest relative to his direction of travel. If he's wanting to lead pivoting ochos, I feel him change the angle of his chest before moving again. Or, in open embrace, I feel the change in the angle of his chest through his arms. He pivots, I stay aligned.
 
A "pattern" is nothing more than an example. You can give more than one if you want. There's nothing wrong with examples. Tango has survived by teaching patterns/examples...
 
Is it really possible to teach ochos without emphasising the heart-to-heart connection? If you dont dissociate you're not really dancing, are you?

I guess it is possible somehow but I have never seen a great dancer that doesn't understand the concepts you mention.I personally don't advocate for shortcuts. You never get much out of it in the long run.
 
A great way to avoid this is to alternative between front and back ochos while on the same standing leg. Keeps the follower alert!
Yes, I tried this - they had a few problems with this, so I dropped it for then.

That's probably something to cover in the next session.
 
I did think of teaching a giro first, in that there's no mandatory footwork for the men there, but then I realised that'd be silly.

Advice: don't attempt to teach something that you yourself have no confidence with. Something that is passed on with half-knowledge will only be picked up/taken on board in similar vein: with half knowledge. And again, the leader doesn't necessarily have to move his feet if his intention/signal is clear and is led from the appropriate signalling point.

These techniques are best served by an experienced teacher.

Yep, I agree.
 
Is it really possible to teach ochos without emphasising the heart-to-heart connection? If you dont dissociate you're not really dancing, are you?

Yes it is. I follow leaders that do it all the time. And from where I am dancing as a follower, it feels wrong. All arms and hands and no heart. It is heavenly bliss when the man's touch, lead, movement etc. is so light that it's almost invisible. :together: I dance same when I'm leading, albeit, yes with beginner types I tend to be a wee bit more forceful in the chest area which sometimes spill over to the arm area.
 

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