Tell me about it.
:headwall:
I wish I had started this a long time ago. Maybe I'd be good by now.
Teaching Musicality to tango dancers
- Thread starter bordertangoman
- Start date
:headwall:
I wish I had started this a long time ago. Maybe I'd be good by now.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
The way I see it, it’s the idea of dancing to the phrases in the music—what the individual beats, notes and instruments combine to make. It’s not taking things one beat at a time, but paying attention to how they are grouped and what those groupings create.JohnEm said:
Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree on this, or perhaps it’s just a communication problem. IMO, interpreting the music is just a way of transforming what is going on in the music into a dance. What is that, if not communicating the music? It’s communicating how one person hears it, to another person…be that an audience or a partner.
Of course, if the leader is not good at his job (not a good leader) it is difficult-to-impossible to communicate what he hears and what he’s interpreting to his partner. Yes, I suppose it could be overcomplicated, and followers can be left wondering just what the leader is trying to dance to. But generally speaking, if he does his job he can bring out what he’s hearing through the dance. They’re listening to the same music—presumably she can hear just what he hears.
When did this become only about beginner dancers? I’d agree that getting into this level of interpretation might not be the best thing for those still working on controlling their own movement, and learning how to lead various things (technique, not steps). Of course, if a leader is spending all his mental energy trying not to run into people on the dance floor, or not step on his partner’s toes, or figure out how to get out of a giro, then it’s not the best time to be bringing this up.
OTOH, there are some things where it’s never too early to start mentioning, and to start having people think about, even if they are not yet ready to make use of the information. It can’t hurt to have beginners learn to listen to the music and try to discern, at the most basic level, how there are phrases…or how there can be tension created through the music. Or how, if you try, you can walk differently to convey different emotion—how you would hold your body differently if you are angry versus if you are sad versus if you are happy…and then start thinking about what sort of emotion is conveyed through the music…and then thinking about how you would hold and move your body to convey that emotion. Do “arcs” or phrases fit into something like this…possibly.
And there’s nothing wrong with taking classes in musicality. It’s a great way to explore different ideas, and learn different ways of expression, and learning to listen to music in different ways. Just because it’s not the best for you (although I’d wager that everyone can learn something new if they try), doesn’t mean it isn’t helpful to other people.
As it happens, I was talking about social dancing. I rarely ever think about professional choreography. Do most people do this? No. Most seem to get to the point of stepping on the beats (or the half-beats) and to consider that good enough. *shrug* That’s fine, I suppose, but it misses out on so much.
This isn’t about dancing to anything you can’t hear. It’s about learning to hear more in the music, and making use of it. And your partner is hearing the same music as you, and she can learn to hear (or at least feel) more in the music, the same as you.
Well, I suppose it depends on how you’re defining “the beat.” I know, I know…a beat is a beat is a beat, right? But are you including the half-beats in that definition? (AKA, double time, or dancing on 1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and.) That, to me, is not strictly dancing on the beat…it’s syncopating, in dance terms. And then there are the sixteenth notes (assuming 4/4 or 2/4 time)—1 ee and ah, 2 ee and ah, etc. Sooo many different options.
As for not stepping ON the beat…well, I’m sort of implying that. Even with nice, even, normal, straight-up, non-changing beats there are ways of stretching and compressing the timing of your dancing. You can arrive on a step a shade ahead of the beat, or hold one step until the very very very last moment of one beat and have to really hustle to “make it to the next beat” on time. There can be slight differences in when you step ver us when you arrive. These are very very very slight differences in timing—much less than a sixteenth note, I’m talking about fractions of fractions of a second. Can they be seen by others? I don’t know. Can they be felt? Absolutely, when they’re done right and combined well…
The only difference between us is in the concept of what we communicate. I say a leader of ability conveys his intrepretation by movement, subtle and otherwise, just not the music itself which is heard by both partners. In fact I'm not sure there's any disagreement at all, only the words.
Because this thread is about teaching musicality to dancers.
Silly me - I just assumed that some musicality is needed right from the start if only the ability to time a walk to the correct beats.
We diverge here but probably only in timing of teaching/learning,
although some of this has to come from within. Crikey, there's many a person who can't convey emotion nor much else in speech and/or writing and never will. There's only so much that can be taught, it has to be learned, absorbed, practised.
Musicality classes I have taken (not for tango but other dance) have turned out to be far too academic.
There's much to agree with in this long post so thanks for that.
However you are guessing what BTM's book means just as much as I would have to.
That's exactly why I used A beat not THE beat.
I'll agree about delaying a departure, which may be possible, but not about the arrival which should neither be ahead nor behind the next most appropriate beat.
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
I agree with this. I danced with a lovely dancer on saturday who responded.. well more than responded, who was taking all my nuances and playing with them; making them into decorations or flourishes; but without them becoming overblown or interfering with the next step; pretty much like jazz musicians answering a riff with another riff..
i think where and how one expresses a response to a beat is key.. it could be a step or an arrival at the neutral position ( collected and standing)
Last night I was teaching milonga to salsa dancers; one guy had the rhythm spot on...but the quality of his step was too spongy; neither heavy enough nor sharp enough. I showed him how I'd like him to move and he got it by us dancing together so he could feel my movements; nothing changed except the quality of the movement.
@ johnem; I dont have a problem with teaching being academic; as someone who works 99% intuitively I need that stating of the bleeding obvious
Do you think you could make your comment more bleeding obvious then?
It wasn't your teaching I was talking about as have no idea what it's like. I can only relate to my own experiences.
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
well of course its not a new concept its been around since at least medieaval times.
I would guess that most people who dance have a stronger sense of rhythm than anything else. People hear it all the time but they dont perceive it as something to dance to
Personally, with these threads on music and cadencia and arc'ing and whatever, I'm starting to channel the young ballerina in movie The Turning Point". She is given very abstract choreography and when she "emotes" too much, the choreographer tells her to "just count to the counts I give you".
She says;
"I don't count"
He says:
"So how do you know what to do, when?"
She replies:
"I feel it.. with the music... and I make it fit"
(he says "well don't feel it, count it" and she walks off in a huff)
I feel it... with the music.. and I make it fit. That's how I dance regardless of what type of dance (or skating) I'm doing. I don't know anything about all this other stuff and I can't explain it any better than that. Since I get compliments, I can only assume it works for me. Seems these discussions are over-complicating the whole idea?
She says;
"I don't count"
He says:
"So how do you know what to do, when?"
She replies:
"I feel it.. with the music... and I make it fit"
(he says "well don't feel it, count it" and she walks off in a huff)
I feel it... with the music.. and I make it fit. That's how I dance regardless of what type of dance (or skating) I'm doing. I don't know anything about all this other stuff and I can't explain it any better than that. Since I get compliments, I can only assume it works for me. Seems these discussions are over-complicating the whole idea?
Yes Zoopsia!
If whatever you are doing works, then by all means, keep doing it. But not everyone has it all figured out (whether on the conscious or subconscious level).
The questions is, how do you explain what you are doing to someone who doesn't feel it. It's not so easy to do.
Mario7
Member
Isn't that amazing, I don't count either! I would rather suffer a tortured death. I recall my first Salsa class, they had me counting. As a result, for years, it was the one dance that I couldn't do.
Mario7
Member
You don't. As Chrisjj would say: "They are hopeless."
Keep it simple. No so-called arcs, phrases, cadences whatever.
And advise newcomers to listen every minute they possibly
can to the music, and move to it as well. Too many people seem to say they love the dance, hate the music. So to love it you have to listen and maybe it will grow on you. Rather similar to when you were young and didn't like coffe and tea (well I didn't).
Well, (surprisingly enough) I disagree with ChrisJJ. Just because he can't doesn't mean that others can't. It is difficult, though.You don't. As Chrisjj would say: "They are hopeless."
I would say that understanding phrasing in music is essential for good musicality.
Yes - but later.