That sublime tango flow thing....

[AndaBien]

To start, I think we are discussing something that is essentially not definable; however, the discussion is still interesting.

For me, dancing with the floor is important: it's one of the things I'm touching. Perhaps it's like the driver of a car who may merely go over the surface of a road, or one who feels the road and responds to it. I constantly feel the floor with my feet, adjust my balance, prepare for the next step.

I frequently get into the zone. For me it's like a zen moment, where there is no past and no future, only the full immediacy of the moment with my partner, the music, the other couples and the floor. I don't do steps, I just dance. I like to call it going over the edge. I can only do this with good partners, who will go over the edge with me. Sometimes the music is a distraction. I often become distracted by other couples, which is irritating. I have also found that I can summon the state of mind if I focus my attention and refuse to be distracted.

 

[bordertangoman]

Pete and Dud on Flow and Pugliese

....."Pete: Give me Pugliese every time. He is the Jimi Hendrix of the Bandoneon. He makes the instrument sound like the human voice. a human voice with passion and drama; His rendition of La Yumba captures every other tango song ever played with a bandoneon.

Dud: he was a pianist Pete.

Pete: that makes his genius even more extraordinary. Only someone with such vision could make an instrument he wasnt playing sound so evocative. When I hear Galla Ciego or Negracha I am aroused to a state of passion that is rarely experienced outside cloistered religious institutions.
If Tanturi and Campos are the best coffee of tango, then Pugliese is the Mescaline of tango. When I hear his music it transports to an altered state where I lose myself. I am no longer conscious of there being a me and a partner or that I am in a room full of people; there is only music and movement. I am no longer responsible for my actions when Pugliese is played.

Dud: Is that why you bump into so many people then?

Pete: quite possibly, Dud, quite possibly........."



for the full transcript go to
http://www.jivetango.co.uk/Humour/PeteAndDud.html

 

[Light Sleeper]

Thanks everyone who responded

More to follow...

 

[Light Sleeper]

A few such experiences (2or3) will make the night a total success for me. In fact, it will advance my dancing skill like nothing else could even come close to.

I want to add after thinking more on this: that there are many woman who are capable of this and do it with others (flow) but won't with me...they may have pre-judged me or simply don't like something about me to the degree that they won't be there in that special way when dancing with me.

I think you highlight the fact that some of this is to do with personal ‘chemistry’ if you like or at least ‘attitude’

Every night - you're lucky!

Not nearly often enough!

Sometimes with familiar and well-loved partners.

Sometimes out of the blue with complete strangers.

It has to be to music that pleases me but that's a fairly broad spectrum.

I have to be in a particular state of mind anyway beforehand - confident, relaxed but energised, and with an ability to totally concentrate on the present moment without an inner commentary.

It has to be with a partner with whom I somehow feel accepted regardless of whether it is a friend or a stranger and also without fears or expectations on my behalf of my performance or his!

In fact, I can't remember when I last had this experience dancing tango. Possibly I would only count half a dozen dances of this special kind in the whole time I have been involved in partner dancing. (About 9 years.)

Yes! I've experienced it little too, which is why it's so dramatic when it does happen. I agree with your criteria for feeling comfortable etc. I've been involved with partner dancing about 7 years on and off and have experienced it little.

I think when I first started tango I was so excited I was in a kind of ‘flow/ connection’ situation but at a very low level.. it was more to do with being so excited at moving to music I connected with.

I think its the music that really makes it possible and 90% of tango music is pretty dire and uninspiring; i feel this because I heard a live performance of Piazzolla's Oblivion. I rarely play it since I dont know many good followers who can dance slow. My partner that evening was struggling with her balance even though she could feel how I was dancing with the music and is someone I like dancing with very much. Paradoxically I get better flow results when I forget about my partner, stuff being considerate and caring; ; even one of my closest friends who hates milonga says she likes dancing it with me when I "just take off". Some women dont get Pugliese so I think there has to be a musical congruence.

Funny you say that – I’ve been trying to make a cd ofmusic I really like and it’s so hard! Broadly I like virtually all tango music but now I’m getting deeper into the dance I do find the amount of music I find truly inspiring is diminishing.

I wasn't sure if you were referring to what some people call "connection", or something else. So I went to look up the Wiki page to get a little more insight. I think this is the reference that you cited.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

After reading this, I think it is referring to what I would call "In the zone", rather than "connection". Is this how you see it? The reason I ask, is because connection is greatly influenced by not only my own performance, but also the follower and the music. Being "in the zone" is mostly about my own performance (I'm dancing really well, and any move I've ever done, I'll execute it flawlessly). Connection is different from this, (at least for me).

I had a couple tandas this weekend were I really felt connected (and it may have been more due to the follower (and the music) than it was me. However I honestly can't say that I was "in the zone". That's a much more rare thing for me, but when it happens, it (almost) doesn't matter who the follower is.

I've done a lot of research and writing on the concept of flow, so I'm very happy to see people discussing it on the forums!

What I've wondered in the course of my personal reflections is whether and to what extent it is possible for one partner to feel flow in the dance without the other feeling it too. Perhaps that is why some feel the need to distinguish between a personal flow and a higher connection between two people.

Maybe it’s different for followers. Knowing I’ve danced well is neither here nor there because usually when I dance my best is when I’m most aware of what I did wrong… it’s a heightened awareness that creates this and there’s a sense of satisfaction to a degree but it’s too self-conscious. I think what I’ve experienced, though, as Andabien said, we’re trying to define something that is indefinable really is an unselfconsioucness. So I didn’t define it in my original post, but that’s because it’s hard to and in any case people knew what I meant as they responded immediately with ‘ooh, it’s what I dance for’ etc… so broadly we’re talking about an exalted feeling of some sort.

When I first experienced it was when my technique wasn’t very good and nor was the leader’s. This last time I know I was bang on the money, it was all so effortless. It was with a piece of music I’ve connected with as an individual so that was special but I don’t actually think it was necessary when it came down to it.. what was most important was that it was a shared experience.

I think that’s the key for me. I’ve never had an exalted feeling when the other person hasn’t (except at the beginning when I was just so excited to be dancing tango). With the first leader it was unspoken but clearly we’d experienced the same thing. And the second leader was very vocal about it!

Being able to give total attention as a follower usually marks out a dance as special for me, and is surprisingly hard to achieve.

I think that’s it, it’s hard to achieve because there is a randomness to it aswell as all the other elements we’ve discussed. But you’re right, I was just there, totally switched off from anything else that was going on and was just following. There is an element of trust, too. That you trust and feel comfortable with the person you are dancing with as we said earlier.

....."Pete: Give me Pugliese every time. He is the Jimi Hendrix of the Bandoneon. He makes the instrument sound like the human voice. a human voice with passion and drama; His rendition of La Yumba captures every other tango song ever played with a bandoneon.

Dud: he was a pianist Pete.




for the full transcript go to
http://www.jivetango.co.uk/Humour/PeteAndDud.html

Hehe – I love Pete n Dud!

 

[bjp22tango]

Good topic!.. you could say that 'flow' is why I dance. For me, it only happens with certain women dancers who really are good at AT close embrace. And so, I look to dance with them when I can. There are various wome capable of this but mostly only one or two at any one time are in the mind-set that they are really, really available to produce this magic on any given night. Any stiffness, breaking of the embrace, inability to follow, balance problems, anticipations, etc. would probably throw enough stones into the shoe to make the dance uncomfortable.

"Flow" is why I dance also, but I'm looking for flow in all styles of dance. I first felt it in EC Swing becuase it was the first dance I learned.

For me, flow comes from a mental connection with my partner and the music. It's like understanding a joke that no one else gets. We are listening to the music in the same way, or able to finish each others' dance sentences.
If I'm leading, and hear something in the music and set up a dance pattern, and the follow responds with the music either expectedly or unexpectedly, that is flow to me.
When I'm following and can pick up on the leaders idea and magnify it or accent it, that is flow to me.
I can't say that I'm a Zen person when I'm dancing. I'm a pretty solitary person when I'm not dancing, so being Zen is the last thing on my mind. When I'm dancing, I'm looking to engage in a nonverbal conversation that has alot of give and take.
It is why I prefer Tango Nuevo, I think.

 

[bordertangoman]

Has anything scientific been done to measure flow; is it endorphin release? or brain wave patterns? Joy?

 

[ant]

Has anything scientific been done to measure flow; is it endorphin release? or brain wave patterns? Joy?

BTM if I remember correctly was there not a thread recently about testing testosterone in saliva and the use of AT as therapy?

 

[opendoor]

... testosterone

this thread concerns spiritual, not ....

 

[bordertangoman]

this thread concerns spiritual, not ....

nothing a can of castrol wouldnt improve....

 

[jantango]

For those who haven't read the thread on the general dance article or who haven't heard the term before, quick definition from Wiki "Flow is the mental state of operation in which the person is fully immersed in what he or she is doing by a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and success in the process of the activity."

That's too textbook though to describe the tango feeling, yes, you're totally absorbed but it's quite special when both of you are absorbed and one with each other and the music. Sigh. Had forgotten what it was like. Not experienced it for a LONG time but it happened again this weekend. Previously it was with a particular leader and he moved away so I only danced with him a few times but each time we were both speechless and in a bit of a dream after a tanda. Very nice. So anyway, I'm curious what other dancer's experience of this is - do you have it often? Is it only to particular music or with particular partners?

I've never read this definition of flow, but it seems to describe how milongueros feel when they are dancing tango--completely immersed in the moment yet aware of the space around them while feeling what the music tells them to do.

I have this experience regularly with certain dance partners. I become totally absorbed in the music and often forget I'm in the arms of a man. I experience a sense of weightlessness.

 

[ant]

this thread concerns spiritual, not ....

The article referred to was about the use of Tango for therapy. IMO I think flow and that therapy are closely connected. In the article they mentioned various tests carried out on the saliva of participants and they found that the testosterone levels went up.

I wonder if the reason for this was the flow/connection felt when they danced AT?

 

[bordertangoman]

The article referred to was about the use of Tango for therapy. IMO I think flow and that therapy are closely connected. In the article they mentioned various tests carried out on the saliva of participants and they found that the testosterone levels went up.

I wonder if the reason for this was the flow/connection felt when they danced AT?

wouldnt testosterone make blokes more likely to fight? and is this an emotional reaction or hormonal?

 

[bordertangoman]

Does tango compare to meditation in the effects it produces;

"In addition to claiming spiritual benefits, meditation has tangible physiological effects. Studies of Transcendental Meditation reveal that during meditation, there is "an increase in the areas of the [cerebral] cortex taking part in perception of specific information and an increase in the functional relationship between the two hemispheres" (4). These observations support the cognitive claims of the "mindful state" in Zen by showing an increase in functional awareness. Additionally, TM practice results in increased EEG coherence, blood flow to the brain, muscle relaxation, and a decrease in stress hormones " (4). Similarly, in Zen practice, some masters can lower the respiration rate from 12-15 breaths per minute to a mere 3 (2). Long term TM practice results in greater EEG coherence; increased efficiency of information transfer in the brain; lower baseline levels of heart and respiration rates; increased stability of the autonomic nervous system; faster recovery from stress; faster reactions; and faster reflex responses (4). These data suggest that relaxation techniques can alter set-points and negative feedback loops which the I-function cannot alter. "Mindfulness" involves the awareness and control of physical operations that we cannot have through a structure that purports to separate "us" from some of our functions. Over-reliance on the "I-function" constitutes an attachment to certain types of behavior which we then privilege over others, falsely supposing the "I" to have a permanence over and above brain functions."

source:http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro99/web2/Benner.html

 

[dchester]

Maybe it’s different for followers. Knowing I’ve danced well is neither here nor there because usually when I dance my best is when I’m most aware of what I did wrong… it’s a heightened awareness that creates this and there’s a sense of satisfaction to a degree but it’s too self-conscious. I think what I’ve experienced, though, as Andabien said, we’re trying to define something that is indefinable really is an unselfconsioucness. So I didn’t define it in my original post, but that’s because it’s hard to and in any case people knew what I meant as they responded immediately with ‘ooh, it’s what I dance for’ etc… so broadly we’re talking about an exalted feeling of some sort.

When I first experienced it was when my technique wasn’t very good and nor was the leader’s. This last time I know I was bang on the money, it was all so effortless. It was with a piece of music I’ve connected with as an individual so that was special but I don’t actually think it was necessary when it came down to it.. what was most important was that it was a shared experience.

I think that’s the key for me. I’ve never had an exalted feeling when the other person hasn’t (except at the beginning when I was just so excited to be dancing tango). With the first leader it was unspoken but clearly we’d experienced the same thing. And the second leader was very vocal about it!

This sounds like what I would call, "connection". It happens more for me than the other experience I was trying to describe (in the zone). It's sort of funny after a tanda when you get a good connection, as the two of us are usually trying to out compliment the other on how good they were (and there really were no fancy steps at all).

When dancing while connected, about the only though I might have (other than bliss) is that I sure hope I don't screw this up.

 

[Madahlia]

The article referred to was about the use of Tango for therapy. IMO I think flow and that therapy are closely connected. In the article they mentioned various tests carried out on the saliva of participants and they found that the testosterone levels went up.

I wonder if the reason for this was the flow/connection felt when they danced AT?

I'd be interested in how the "therapeutic tango" was administered. After all, it takes years to learn tango, and in the early stages stress levels typically go up rather than down as so many new challenges are presented.

Also, does testosterone go up in tangueras as well? Women with higher (relatively, nowhere near as much as men) levels of testosterone have higher levels of libido, I believe.

Rather than just producing aggression, might it not also produce a heightened response to stimuli?

I think "flow" must have something to do with brain wave patterns. I remember doing an accelerated learning course where it was emphasised that the learners must be got into a suitably relaxed state for learning. I know that if I'm tense my brain just freezes, rendering me incapable of taking in any information - could "flow" be the opposite of that?

http://www.web-us.com/brainwavesfunction.htm



http://www.200words-a-day.com/alpha.html

Might the state we are trying to describe be a theta-wave state? Rare, hard to achieve, meditational but highly creative?