That sublime tango flow thing....

[Joy In Motion]

The connection with African Dance is there, although now it is rather tenuous. The "coolness" of the dancers, especially the milongueros, can be traced to African influence, as an example.
Robert's essay references experiencing being part of a whole, and he uses the term "flow".
In the "West" we think of dancing as an individual/partner pursuit.
In Africa dance is something that helps bind the community together.

There's more in this book that Joy in Motion mentioned about how the community creates and reinforces standards. It would be useful in our AT communities to adopt the same attitudes, but it may be too much to ask. Traditional African "dance education" begins as early as you can imagine. In the West... well, you know how it is.

I like that you brought up the concept of coolness, Steve, as discussed by Thompson and Chernoff. I know there is much more to the concept, but when I first read a little about it I wondered if the look on our faces naturally changes when we experience flow and has that appearance of coolness. I know when I experience flow I can feel my face (and indeed my whole body) changing - becoming lighter and somehow different in quality. I often wondered if this is a change identifiable by others, and sometimes I wonder if I could train myself to be able to tell when others are feeling flow by watching their faces. I know that I feel attracted or repelled by someone's dancing by their facial expressions (and many other factors of course). Is the changing of the face pretty much the same across the board when it comes to experiencing flow, or does it differ by individual? If it is similar to Zen or if there is something physical/chemical happening in the brain and the body, it is entirely possible that it's out of our control and something we all similarly experience, which could visably be seen and could possibly be detected. Perhaps the idea of coolness developed from recognizing this heightened experience of flow in others. At the very least I see coolness in dancers who seem totally focused in a relaxed sense (again, one of the characteristics of flow: relaxed concentration) when it comes to their movement, the music, and their partner and who also have character and depth in their dancing. I would definitely need to research and come to understand coolness better to see if this is how Africans truly view this quality in dancers. I know there are a lot of specific religious connotations as well; not sure how fluid this concept is to them. But I rant, my apologies...

True, African music and dancing is more about community, and they typically dance in circles or in other communal configurations. But I like to think that we can find a similar sense of community on an individual level as well as a communal level through partner dancing as well. I certainly feel this way, but unfortunately many don't experience this or haven't been opened up to these possibilities. For many it is about showing off or other superficial reasons. The more someone turns away from these motivations, the more their dancing is attractive to me. I have very strong sensitivity to that when I dance with someone and when I watch someone dance. I find that not everyone has these sensitivities, but I hope they can be developed if people are willing and wanting.

 

[Steve Pastor]

So I would argue that it's only really possible to achieve "flow" on (a) an uncrowded floor or (b) on a disciplined one.

I guess I'm arguing that when it's really working, you react to the movement of others without thinking.
Again Dchester's post re basketball got me started on this. You HAVE to react to other players. If you are skiing you HAVE to react to the changing terrain, and often make your moves so you avoid running into other skiers.
If you haven't moved through a crowd without any discernable effort, it's hard to understand. And, yes, as Robert wrote, there is a feeling of oneness with the crowd you are in.
Let me add here, though, that to do this I need a partner who is very much in sync with my movement. Without this, I have to pay too much attention to her, and where she is or might go, and there is no flow.
BTW there is (or can be) the same feeling with the other dances I do.
I love the challenge of dancing in a crowd, even on a Saturday night at a CW place (usually); but need that good partner to make it work.
Oh, and just WHY is it that we go out among others to dance? Maybe, just maybe, as people argue regarding theater and "going to the movies", there is something we don't quite acknowldge about the communal and social aspect of dancing (and seeing things as a group) because of our culture's emphasis on indivduality.

I'm also (trying to) read(ing) and comprehend "The Tao of Physics", which likens "recent" discoveries of the nature of the universe on scales we don't normally experience and the new understanding of the true nature of the universe with the "oneness" and "timelessness" of "Zen" like states.

It's like that.

 

[mkjohnson]

The only time, granted in my limited 9 month tango dancing history, I experienced what I think approximates this - was on a very crowded milonga floor. My partner and I were very connected, relaxed (okay, exhausted, it was very, very late) - and it felt like we were in no particular hurry. Instead of my partner looking for a patch of daylight to dart into - we just settled into our 'alotted' space and moved with the crowd. About halfway through the first song, it started to feel like the entire floor of dancers was moving together. Everyone was contributing to the flow of the floor and the dance. The sensation of a group of dancers all moving together with the music was just beyond description (and here's me trying). Amazing. Transcendental. Whatever.

One thing I noticed when the floor starts to feel like this - there is very little talking. Some dancers/couples always seem to talk a great deal. For some reason I noticed the crowd being very quiet at the time. Focused on the music.

 

[dchester]

... didn't mean to sound pedantic, my main point was that even if you have a wonderful connection physically, you won't necessarily get the blissed out feeling. And conversely, someone said they felt 'in the zone' with me, yet their dancing is atrocious, zero physical connection, they just liked dancing with me/ having me in their arms.

This relates to why I was initially trying to find out what type of feeling you were referring to when you said "flow". That blissed out feeling, is what I refer to as "connection". "In the zone" is something else altogether (and to me, it sounded like what the Wiki article said about flow). I get the connection a lot more than I get in the zone.

Could both happen at the same time? Possibly it does for some people. It just hasn't happened for me yet.

 

[opendoor]

..came down to neck thing

I find it disillusioning that none of the guys has encountered that neck thing and brought it into a connection with flow experiences. May be my senses were deceiving me?

... But when ..., another thing occurs, too: that left hand playing of the women...

 

[Light Sleeper]

I have it now and then... I cannot predict it, it comes and passes. Factors that affect it: the music, the moon, the mood, and the partner.... But when it occurs, another thing occurs, too: that left hand playing of the women at your neck! It is a good indicator for the flow!

That sounds like full-on flirting to me!!

 

[Light Sleeper]

This relates to why I was initially trying to find out what type of feeling you were referring to when you said "flow". That blissed out feeling, is what I refer to as "connection". "In the zone" is something else altogether (and to me, it sounded like what the Wiki article said about flow). I get the connection a lot more than I get in the zone.

Could both happen at the same time? Possibly it does for some people. It just hasn't happened for me yet.

I personally can't differentiate what you describe as 'in the zone' and 'connection'... they seem to intermingle too much in these situations I've experienced.

 

[bordertangoman]

I like that you brought up the concept of coolness, Steve, as discussed by Thompson and Chernoff. I know there is much more to the concept, but when I first read a little about it I wondered if the look on our faces naturally changes when we experience flow and has that appearance of coolness.

a slight tangent; further to coolness; in the uk my perception is that the cool guys aren't dancing tango; they're dancing salsa, reggaeton, hip-hop, kizomba and maybe ceroc ( DB are you cool?)

 

[Light Sleeper]

So I would argue that it's only really possible to achieve "flow" on (a) an uncrowded floor or (b) on a disciplined one.

I must say, that on the few occasions it has happened, it was indeed on an uncrowded floor.

I know when I experience flow I can feel my face (and indeed my whole body) changing - becoming lighter and somehow different in quality. I often wondered if this is a change identifiable by others, and sometimes I wonder if I could train myself to be able to tell when others are feeling flow by watching their faces. I know that I feel attracted or repelled by someone's dancing by their facial expressions (and many other factors of course). Is the changing of the face pretty much the same across the board when it comes to experiencing flow, or does it differ by individual?

This is interesting! I’ll try and get a friend to observe how my face changes when I’m dancing with this particular leader. My initial thought is that, actually, this is going to differ a lot from individual to individual.

True, African music and dancing is more about community, and they typically dance in circles or in other communal configurations. But I like to think that we can find a similar sense of community on an individual level as well as a communal level through partner dancing as well. I certainly feel this way, but unfortunately many don't experience this or haven't been opened up to these possibilities.

I’m not immune to communal feelings. One of my joys in life is trying to find ‘fellowship’ no matter how fleeting. I’m not religious so that rules that out. I’m an activist, and I have experienced feeling part of a community when, say, on the picket lines. As long as there’s one commonality I will feel a sense of community and being one part of a whole. Dancing communities vary so much in character. I’m open to future possibilities but at present I haven’t experienced a feeling of community on the dancefloor.. I think because there are such varied reasons for people’s presence on the dancefloor… nobody gives up a day’s pay and stands all day in the cold and rain to rain on their fellow companion’s parade… who knows what motivates some dancers? I could rattle off dozens of reasons why people dance and it’s not all ‘nice’ or ‘community spirited’.

.

Oh, and just WHY is it that we go out among others to dance? Maybe, just maybe, as people argue regarding theater and "going to the movies", there is something we don't quite acknowldge about the communal and social aspect of dancing (and seeing things as a group) because of our culture's emphasis on indivduality.

I'm also (trying to) read(ing) and comprehend "The Tao of Physics", which likens "recent" discoveries of the nature of the universe on scales we don't normally experience and the new understanding of the true nature of the universe with the "oneness" and "timelessness" of "Zen" like states.

It's like that.

Going back to Steve’s discussion of African attitudes. Well, yes, in a way Western industrial societies are ‘tribal’ in their own way.. but the fact of the matter is we’ve a more sharply defined sense of individuality/ ego than certain cultures that derived from hunter-gatherer societies etc. There’s no getting away from that. ‘Course, some have even greater egos than others within that society ;-)

As an aside, I watched a programme about ‘the glamour era’ in Britain (from 1920s to the 40s), there used to be dancehalls on every corner practically – everyone danced. Things have changed so much and it’s become such a money spinner for the Ballroom world. And also, there was some lovely footage from a dancehall, the floor was packed and nobody seemed to be bumping into each other.. they were just doing some lovely social travelling dancing, not sure what you’d call it.. and I have to say, it definitely wasn’t AT but the women were doing lovely backwards extensions that would put a lot of AT dancers to shame!

 

[Light Sleeper]

a slight tangent; further to coolness; in the uk my perception is that the cool guys aren't dancing tango; they're dancing salsa, reggaeton, hip-hop, kizomba and maybe ceroc ( DB are you cool?)

What's your definition of coolness? My perception is that it means you're very aware of your skill level and, most crucially, you don't give a rat's b*m what anyone thinks of you.

The cool guys are the ones who wear hats! Because you don't dance with a hat on unless you think you're the bee's knees (regardless of whether you are or not!)

 

[bordertangoman]

I find it disillusioning that none of the guys has encountered that neck thing and brought it into a connection with flow experiences. May be my senses were deceiving me?

i have experienced the neck thing and its very nice strangely enough i had a nice dance with a woman last weekend who had a very comfortable embrace but hadnt even learnt to cross. baffling

 

[bordertangoman]

What's your definition of coolness? My perception is that it means you're very aware of your skill level and, most crucially, you don't give a rat's b*m what anyone thinks of you.

The cool guys are the ones who wear hats! Because you don't dance with a hat on unless you think you're the bee's knees (regardless of whether you are or not!)

aha but coolness is subject to the Johari Window Defenestration Effect;

ie: you may think you're the bees-knees and have the audacity to wear a hat but you may find that Like Steve Martin in the jerk, that you're not black nor cool.

 

[opendoor]

.... sounds like.....

ooh

 

[dchester]

I find it disillusioning that none of the guys has encountered that neck thing and brought it into a connection with flow experiences. May be my senses were deceiving me?

It might simply be that you've been able to experience something, that some of us have not, yet. I'll admit that I haven't experienced the "connection to the floor" that was mentioned previously. Apparently others have, though. I hope that someday, I'll understand it.

OK, I went back and re-read where you originally talked about the neck thing.

I have it now and then... I cannot predict it, it comes and passes. Factors that affect it: the music, the moon, the mood, and the partner.... But when it occurs, another thing occurs, too: that left hand playing of the women at your neck! It is a good indicator for the flow!

That's what I have been calling connection (not flow, not in the zone). Feeling are difficult to define and discuss, but it is interesting.

 

[Heather2007]

further to coolness; in the uk my perception is that the cool guys aren't dancing tango;...

Bang on! Tango requiires too much attention to look good for others...see LS's post below..

...crucially, you don't give a rat's b*m what anyone thinks of you.

The cool guys are the ones who wear hats! Because you don't dance with a hat on unless you think you're the bee's knees (regardless of whether you are or not!)

Watched MJ's This Is It and during the Smooth Criminal bit couldn't help thinking "hat's are so cool, why don't guys wear them any more".

And, and, and...my definition of cool is Lucas from Spooks...Now I see him with a hat, with a gun and a wicked piece of slow tango. Yummmmmmmmm!!!! :tongue: