The affordability of ballroom dance (median income per capita)

Larinda McRaven said:
No. Because for most pros competition is NOT their vocation, teaching is. No one was paying me to compete, or practice, or travel, or take coaching, those were all my choices of how to spend my personal time. Choosing to compete and take coaching, enough to climb the ladder, means you actually lose the ability to work and make income regardless of your job. I still had to ask my boss for time off work just like an amateur competitor woking in an office. I came into work late so I could go to a studio somewhere else and get coaching at 10am. I ate up vacation, personal, and sick days going to competitions. Regardless of where I worked.

For MOST competing pros competition is a personal hobby. Most are not going to make the open final at USDC or any open final for that matter. Most will never see a prize check over $300 if at all. Most will not become rich and famous from it. Most do it just to see if they can do it.
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I think one of the big differences here though, is that all the expenses a dance teacher has to compete, from comp costs to coachings, etc. are all tax deductible and part of their expenses as a performing arts professional. not to mention the potential to be a sponsored pro with free dresses, etc. so while a pro doesn't make money competing, they are definitely able to take those costs and use them to their financial benefit.
 
I believe Larinda that what she's saying is generally true because, well, she would know. For professionals who do well enough competitively, it completely changes their career, of course: judging, coaching, etc. There's also the fact that what they learn by preparing for the competitions ups their game as teachers considerably long before they are successful competitively. New Guy teachers at the studio are working extremely hard on their own dancing and professional partnerships and it really shows. Their students are progressing very well and they both have ones who are really hooked on the qualities of dance. And I would estimate that at least 3/4 of Pro's students are happy to take lessons with them when Pro is out of town and that hasn't ever been true before. When I think of them, it seems very unfair that they can't deduct more of their dance related expenses. On the other hand, there's another studio in the region that is very successful, but very different; when I think of them, I can see the separation between teaching and competing expenses.
 
I'm sorry. I don't understand this statement "For MOST competing pros competition is a personal hobby." This implies that pro's competing has no impact on their career. As RiseNFall implies, competing builds reputation, knowledge, opens more pro/am opprotunities, and overall advances one career. A lot of those advancents will not come without it. Certainly if one spent that time and energy doing gardening (another hobby), one's dance career could not advance as far. An accountant doesn't go to Washington DC for a vacation, they go to attend a seminar on tax law to improve one's career and would never state otherwise. (Who has a hobby as a tax account? :-))

I completely understand the statement that one needs to sacrifice to be competitive which I believe is the main point; however, there are certain limits for a hobby driven by time and financial resources especially when the "hobby" will not advance ones ability to pay for food, clothing, and shelter in the future.
 
I think Larinda's point is that the large majority of people who compete professionally don't do well enough for it to significantly impact their career. Bio's for many teachers contain vague statements such as "successfully competed in many regional, national and international competitions" without listing events or results. That could mean pretty much anything and the majority of potential students aren't going to ask. Once more, I'm sure she's right... 'cause she would know. So, for the large majority of dancers who compete professionally, at some point "competing to potentially advance one's career" becomes "competing as a hobby".
 
sure...and those are fair points regarding the experience of a professional....one major difference regarding cost issues is that a student has to pay for their partner...which in many cases is the single largest cost......

one thing is certain, there are massive sacrifices that are necessary, financial and otherwise, that are necessary in order to approach a certain level of success
 
Larinda McRaven said:
No. Because for most pros competition is NOT their vocation, teaching is. No one was paying me to compete, or practice, or travel, or take coaching, those were all my choices of how to spend my personal time. Choosing to compete and take coaching, enough to climb the ladder, means you actually lose the ability to work and make income regardless of your job. I still had to ask my boss for time off work just like an amateur competitor woking in an office. I came into work late so I could go to a studio somewhere else and get coaching at 10am. I ate up vacation, personal, and sick days going to competitions. Regardless of where I worked.

For MOST competing pros competition is a personal hobby. Most are not going to make the open final at USDC or any open final for that matter. Most will never see a prize check over $300 if at all. Most will not become rich and famous from it. Most do it just to see if they can do it.

No matter what my day job was I still had to take time off to compete. I still had to make more sacrifices than just money to win. And if I wasn't willing or capable, well then, fine.

So yes, the median average income person can compete, quite successfully, even on a professional floor. And when people say "I could spend the money but I choose not to because it still wouldn't be enough" I don't believe it. Because it isn't all about the money, really. And again most people will never want to accept that and will get defensive. But the reality is there, you won't win if you won't commit, regardless of money.
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Even if competition is a personal hobby for competing pros, with success there is an added value to their marketability as a teacher, coach, and potential future judge. The added value may not be immediately seen, of course.
 
I'm fairly certain a professional dancer who teaches and competes could justifiably consider a portion or even all of his / her coaching received for professional competitions as tax-deductible education expenses, since I don't know of a single actively learning pro who didn't bring back info from his / her coaching to his / her students.

Granted, I'm not an accountant, but I got the impression from talking to my coach that he's gotten similar advice from his accountant (and possibly also can include some amount of competition expense as reasonable and customary for his profession).
 
You could take many of those deductions it you were an independent contractor, not a w-2 employee. But then, no benefits and you pay both parts of the soc security taxes. YMMV.
 
Wow. All of this is mindblowing. I was on $43K when I was still involved in dancing and every spare penny I had went on the travel and tickets to get to the competitions - just to watch! Never mind paying for lessons and dresses and the rest!!!!! I truly don't know how anybody affords it. I never had anything left over for anything else, and have never been able to afford the luxury of having a car. My biggest downfall is my debt, as I ended up running up credit cards to pay for these things when the money wasn't readily available for me, and so the repayments now eat a chunk out of my wages every month. Been worth every penny though, I won't lie.
 
This is what I think the average budget would be for a serious proam student dancing one style:
3 lessons per week: $1000 per month/ 12,000 per year
2 coachings every 3 months: $1000 per year
4-6 comps per year: $3,000 per comp, $12,000- $18,000 per year
One new dress every other year: $2,000 per year for a $4,000 dress.
Grand total per year: around $33,000 to do one style on a serious level.
If you aren't making over $100,000 per year it's virtually impossible to be a serious competitor. Sure, you can take one lesson a week and do a couple of local comps per year, but it won't put you in the 'serious competitor' category.
 
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