The apilado equation

[Tangogal]

I think I am still misunderstanding the terms. Single axis embrace is called what? The partners are leaning towards each other and are at tipping point or beyond. They require complete trust so as not to fall. Embrace can be held throughout the dance. It is not a popular style.

Volcado - one partner, usually the follower is leaning forward. The other is braced and grounded in the manner of a brick wall. The follower will fall if the leader evaporates. Single axis.

Colgada - again the partners rely on each other not to fall but the lean is away from centre. Single axis.

 

[itwillhappen]

I refer to the posture where you tilt your body forward until you meet your partner, each maintaining their own axis, as A-frame. Apilado was taught as weight-sharing and maintaining a single axis. Are these wrong or not current definitions?

Maybe lean is just an illusion, but no lean either.
If I go forward, you would call my ideal an A-frame. If the partner disappeared, I would need a fast step to balance myself. Even in an open dance hold.
If I lead a 360° turn within three or even two steps with stable chest contact, it is more like apilado. If my partner disappeared, I would be with one knee on the floor. Did not happen yet, either.
And very gentle volcadas are part of many breaks, I don't dance colgadas.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Continuing with the physics...
Law's equation is diagramed in appendix k: Lean, Don’t Slip on page 224 (I was able to download a pdf of the book, but the illustrations are not included. I've owned the book for a number of years.)

In the situation he analyzes, a partner is supporting ballerina with a horizontal force.
In the equation
Fp =W(Lc /H)

W = the Weight of the supported person
Lc = Horizontal distance from point of contact at the floor to COG <--- Lc --->
H = Height of COG above floor

Lc and H are both units of length, and so cancel out, leaving Fp with a unit of weight.
Fp is a catch all phrase for any PUSH or PULL that does not fit neatly into any other category.

In the illustration you can't see in the pdf W and H are two sides of a right triangle, which was the basis for the next step I took in examining the "leaning partners" situation.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Stuff I'd like to comment on...

This is from some 15 year old sweep of what I thought were good source of information on AT.

Apilado Style - See Milonguero Style. The term Apilado can be interpreted loosely as “put yourself forward” for the leader or “lean towards the leader” for the follower, which describes the kind of close embrace used by the milongueros from the centre of Buenos Aires. As the dancers lean towards each other (more or less according to preference) they share a third axis, creating, vertically from the heels, a /\ formation in which the apex of the /\ corresponds to the upper part of both bodies where the couple are in contact. In addition the follower embraces the leader by putting her left arm around his neck towards his left shoulder.

This is how I think of apilado, as does Tangogal.
The partners are leaning towards each other and are at tipping point or beyond. They require complete trust so as not to fall.
It's awful hard to know for sure from the outside, if a couple is there. You can sure feel it, though, from the inside.

In an apilado embrace the two vertical lines from COG to the floor, which are separate when partners dance on their own axis, merge into one; making the use of the term "single axis" appropriate. Also note, though, that each dancer still has an axis from their COG to the "point of contact" with the floor.
And I think the scientific heavy hitters have something to say about that, too, as do I.

It sounds like Susanna Miller has gone through some sort of evolution in her teaching. The part about no step until you can't feel her is in direct contrast to what I've read for years about Portenas (sp) not moving until there is enough "energy directed towards them." (I think my dance was far enough along when I had my limited experience in BA that I didn't really notice. )

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I refer to the posture where you tilt your body forward until you meet your partner, each maintaining their own axis, as A-frame. Apilado was taught as weight-sharing and maintaining a single axis. Are these wrong or not current definitions?

I think they are misleading. There is mutual pressure, but it's not all that great and you certainly don't create an A-frame with it. The partners have to maintain their own axes.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I have heard several times that in workshops that creates massive stress, especially among leaders.

I can vouch for that.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Single axis embrace is called what?

I have never heard of this. I don't think it exists outside of a few performance videos.

 

[Steve Pastor]

That definition of apilado? It comes from an interview with Yvonne Meissner.

The Topic is Tango: Yvonne Meissner on Tango Styles

 

[Steve Pastor]

This works for me, but as always, "light pressure' is open to interpretation. Also note the lack of pressure on the woman's back in the embrace.


Looked at a couple of his vals performances.... man, I miss this stuff.

 

[Tangogal]

I think we probably all have different definitions of the words “lean” and “pressure”. My early tango teachers were mostly Argentines so perhaps they didn’t have the vocabulary to explain semantics in English. They generally taught open embrace but demonstrated other embraces in their practicas.

One returned from a trip to Buenos Aires and was not impressed with the popular style in the milongas there. It was an exaggerated lean like the Gavito performance video!
I think this was a short-lived fad as referenced by @gyb in talking about Susana Miller’s workshops.

@ArbeeNYC there are definitely people who dance while leaning against each other. They claim it’s the best way to dance because of the “trust fall” element. They’re dancing for more than 20 years and have taken a multitude of classes and workshops. They’ve travelled extensively. It’s possible that the style is a quirk of their own but I have come across it more than once.

I haven’t done any classes or workshops in ages and very rarely take ones on specialised embrace but will look out for them in the future if only to satisfy my own curiosity.

EDIT: I should add that when I moved to my current city the main teacher taught a closed embrace similar to the video posted by @Steve Pastor of Tete Rusconi

 

[itwillhappen]

This works for me, but as always, "light pressure' is open to interpretation. Also note the lack of pressure on the woman's back in the embrace.


Looked at a couple of his vals performances.... man, I miss this stuff.

I think in the video it is clear that it is about a common axis of rotation. You can also turn around a common axis if you stand upright a meter apart. But then the centrifugal forces and the moment of inertia are much greater, so you are severely limited in your dynamics.

 

[itwillhappen]

This is how I think of apilado, as does Tangogal.
The partners are leaning towards each other and are at tipping point or beyond. They require complete trust so as not to fall.
It's awful hard to know for sure from the outside, if a couple is there. You can sure feel it, though, from the inside.

I think trust is a currency, you may or may not put it on the table. And I think it's not about the trust to keep the balance, that's just a protective construction of the head, it's about the trust that the other can feel your body, your breath, your heartbeat.

I had a mirada at the last weekend, where it was clear that the time had come for us to dance a tanda in full presence. A smile, a nod, a dozen steps, little time to clear my head, no more time for doubt. Apilado, angles, pressure, formulas, roles, all bullshit. We had to trust that we were both ready to give all we have and that it would be enough to get what we desire.

 

[Rabbit]

there are definitely people who dance while leaning against each other. They claim it’s the best way to dance because of the “trust fall” element. They’re dancing for more than 20 years and have taken a multitude of classes and workshops. They’ve travelled extensively. It’s possible that the style is a quirk of their own but I have come across it more than once.

There must have been a school of thought promoting this style that has since fallen out of fashion. Back when I was taking classes, I never once encountered a teacher that used the term "apilado" or proposed that the follower should dance in a position where she would fall over if the leader were to magically disappear.

 

[itwillhappen]

There must have been a school of thought promoting this style that has since fallen out of fashion. Back when I was taking classes, I never once encountered a teacher that used the term "apilado" or proposed that the follower should dance in a position where she would fall over if the leader were to magically disappear.

I've met one guy in five years who danced only "heavy apilado", he had learned that in privates at BsAs.
Let's face it - in that case it was an obsession, a fetish, but I really don't want to generalize that.

 

[Steve Pastor]

I also rarely heard the term apilado during my several years of lessons. But one or two or three in particular stressed the of mutual independence with that shared axis. And I'll add that the man would also feel a need to step forward if HIS partner vaporized (or, more commonly, moving her weight away.

Again with Law's equation to describe one partner supporting the other with a horizontal force...
In D H WInter's Human balance and posture control... he describes the inverted pendulum model used to for human movement and includes a diagram of a body swaying back and forth. The bottom of the inverted pyramid pivots around the ankle.

Using a right triangle, and a handy tool at calculator.net triangle that simplifies things greatly, we can do some calculations relatively easy.

A partner weighing 180 would have to lean 1 degree, and a partner weighing 90 would have to lean 2 degrees for them to be at equilibrium with 3 pounds of horizonal force respectively.

This is consistent with how light the connection was during "close embrace" classes with Alex Krebs, and I'm pretty sure my partners were not relying on me for their balance.
My instructors who weren't using the term apilado had us "lean" more, and produce a stronger connection at the torso. We would even practice leading our partner to take a step forward by pulling back and reducing that forward horizontal force.

Other folks have stated that learning to dance this way (with more lean and weight sharing) is not an easy thing. It was like pretty much starting over again for me.

Winter used "force plates" to measure the forces described in the paper. I've considered using regular bathroom scales, but they don't work really well when they aren't horizontal. If anyone knows of someone who has "force plates"... Maybe with the way wearable electronics are advancing we'll be able to see how much weight we are sharing with our partners one day.
But there, at least is one way to look at apilado using an actual equation.