The Booty Misconception

[itwillhappen]

And many
regular visiting foreign ladies repeatedly go for dancing in an
Argentine embrace because they cannot find it at home despite
the many teachers claiming to teach it in addition to those of course
who do not teach an embrace at all.

FWIW: at home is no hope:

Teaching tango, I have noticed that it is quite easy to get an Argentine man of any age, who has never danced tango, to promote his chest. And equally difficult to get men of most other cultures to do so. They keep their hearts tucked in their armpits, behind a sturdy rampart of shoulder.

http://tangoforge.com/lead-with-the-chest/

 

[itwillhappen]

We don't know how the old when they were young, no evidence
exists but the milongueros still around at the 1980/1990s revival
possibly still danced much as before. It certainly wasn't the wild
show-off dance of some of the young today.

Good point.
It was a young generation that danced to D'Arienzo live, that introduced sacadas and such stuff.
What do you think about Pepito Avellaneda et Suzuki de Souza here in 1995 - one year before he passed away?

 

[dchester]

Is that enough name dropping?

Hardly.

If you need an empirical survey
I suggest you go and do it yourself and you might find how
pointless it is to seek absolutes in an ever changing social environment
affected by unseen and sometimes unknown circumstances.

I don't need an empirical survey. I merely challenged whether you were qualified to state your opinion as fact. IMO, you're not.

 

[opendoor]

It was a young generation that danced to D'Arienzo live, that introduced sacadas and such stuff..

We are mixing a style and a history discussion. Sacadas are older than tango itself and were around right from the beginning of our dance form. But different styles made different use of this move. My last point, in the beginning tango was danced in open hold on the spot (tango criollo).

 

[jantango]

Hardly.

I don't need an empirical survey. I merely challenged whether you were qualified to state your opinion as fact. IMO, you're not.

I read all of JohnEm's recent comments. For what it's worth, I agree with everything he wrote. IMO, John has spent enough time in Buenos Aires to know the milongas, milongueros, codigos, and tell things as they are.

 

[jantango]

JanTango is our only other regular contributor who has spent more time in the milongas of Buenos Aires, as far as I can tell.

I completed 18 years in Buenos Aires this year.

 

[sixela]

Good point.
What do you think about Pepito Avellaneda et Suzuki de Souza here in 1995 - one year before he passed away?

I think (having seen Pepito dance) whoever did the postproduction and stitched the audio together with the video did a very, very bad job of syncing the two.

 

[dchester]

I read all of JohnEm's recent comments. For what it's worth, I agree with everything he wrote. IMO, John has spent enough time in Buenos Aires to know the milongas, milongueros, codigos, and tell things as they are.

From what I saw of the milongas he posted, I feel his selection of milongas is skewed. FWIW, some other people that I talk to who live there, do paint a somewhat different picture of things. However, I trust your judgement since you actually live there.

 

[jantango]

From what I saw of the milongas he posted, I feel his selection of milongas is skewed. FWIW, some other people that I talk to who live there, do paint a somewhat different picture of things. However, I trust your judgement since you actually live there.

There are currently 78 milongas in Buenos Aires. No one has time to attend them all. For the most part, young dancers don't attend milongas for seniors in the afternoon and evening. Seniors aren't interested in attending the night milongas where young people dance. There are milongas of all types.

I suggested milongas during your recent visit and gave you my thoughts about the list for your group tour. I did the same for John when he came for the first time five years ago. I know the milonga scene well enough to recommend milongas based on the dance level and age of the individual. I hear comments from people about the milongas that weren't right for them. If one has only three weeks to dance, it's best not to waste time trying out milongas.

John's description was accurate. He knows where to dance in the city center milongas. He rents an apartment walking distance to them all. These milongas open as early at 3:00 p.m. I attend the same milongas as John.

I'll be happy to help you when you come for a month or two so you can establish a daily milonga routine and feel a part of the local tango scene.

 

[dchester]

There are currently 78 milongas in Buenos Aires. No one has time to attend them all. For the most part, young dancers don't attend milongas for seniors in the afternoon and evening. Seniors aren't interested in attending the night milongas where young people dance. There are milongas of all types.

I suggested milongas during your recent visit and gave you my thoughts about the list for your group tour. I did the same for John when he came for the first time five years ago. I know the milonga scene well enough to recommend milongas based on the dance level and age of the individual. I hear comments from people about the milongas that weren't right for them. If one has only three weeks to dance, it's best not to waste time trying out milongas.

John's description was accurate. He knows where to dance in the city center milongas. He rents an apartment walking distance to them all. These milongas open as early at 3:00 p.m. I attend the same milongas as John.

I'll be happy to help you when you come for a month or two so you can establish a daily milonga routine and feel a part of the local tango scene.

I'm probably a bit more of a hybrid (or something), as I like a variety of different milongas. I must confess, I really do like dancing to some of the tango bands they have in BsAs, (as most bands here in the US don't really focus on the "Golden age" style of music. They're more into fusing jazz with tango songs, which gets old quickly for me). So a lot of nights, we would go to a milonga where a band would be playing.

My most memorable milongas this past trip were: Nuevo Chique (some really nice embraces there, and where I had the honor of dancing with someone very special) ; Salon Canning (with La Orquesta Tipica La Juan D'Arienzo playing, and they were great); De Querusa (listed as a practica, but it sure seemed like a milonga); and at Club Gricel (some great performances that night, and some great dancing in the milonga).

I tried to talk more to people on this trip, and get their thoughts on various topics. Some of the Argentines were very surprised that there was tango in the US. On one of the nights at Salon Canning, a nice man who was at the table we were at (we were all the guests of one of the performers that night), was skeptical about tango in the US (as well as me being a DJ). He was (politely) quizzing me about tango music, until he was satisfied that I actually did know a something about it. Later, after drinking some bubbly, he admitted that we danced well, (although I have to admit, he was a better dancer than I was).

To be honest, I had great time at the milongas I went to (even though the styles were very different at some of them). People were friendly to us. However, I couldn't do every milonga I planned on doing, (I didn't make it back to Sunderland this time). In any case, it's a great lifestyle (while on vacation) when you can do a early milonga, go eat dinner at 10, then go to a late milonga. Also, I did get talked into going to a fancy (i.e. expensive) restaurant, Chila. If you're into overpriced gourmet food, it was very nice.

The bottom line, I felt very comfortable there in BsAs, and look forward to my next visit, whenever it will be.

 

[Gssh]

"Unchanged" means to restrict the dance to something one feels safe and can handle.

I somewhat agree with opendoor - this is starting to confound way too many different things.

I actually thought that what you were talking about tango that is close embrace and counterbalanced. In my experience this is somewhat at the higher end in physical demands and technically more demanding that a lot of dancing where the embrace changes. Creating that characteristic internal coiling energy between the dancers and working with it is somewhat tricky and requires quite a bit of core strength.

I would suggest that the dimension in which a lot of dancers restrict their dance to feel safe is their balance/axis. They keep their geometry essentially independent of their partners, and forego the options that using the partners energy and groundpath offers for movement.

 

[itwillhappen]

I would suggest that the dimension in which a lot of dancers restrict their dance to feel safe is their balance/axis. They keep their geometry essentially independent of their partners, and forego the options that using the partners energy and groundpath offers for movement.

Ok, many "occasional dancer" in Europe are skilled in a lot of moves but not trained to do them (counter-)balanced. So they dance something like "Tango de Salon". That is some kind of restriction.
And they dance enrosques but it looks awkward.

On the other hand, what we see today often as a "milonguero" may be very experienced but mostly not trained nor skilled. He prefers a comfortable posture and a pleasant close embrace. Many moves are not possible in a close embrace. That's another kind of restriction.
And even if not - they would not even try an enrosque.

Beside that a new generation of highly skilled and trained performers is leaving the tango schools of BsAs. They are not restricted to a style, but "Tango de Salon" is nearer to their "Escenario" in performances.
And their enrosque is excellent, of course.

 

[JohnEm]

Good point.
It was a young generation that danced to D'Arienzo live, that introduced sacadas and such stuff.
What do you think about Pepito Avellaneda et Suzuki de Souza here in 1995 - one year before he passed away?

It's not my style but I have little problem with it
as a dance. Outstretched arms are always a problem
for others in crowded conditions, some dancers draw them
inwards but far too many others seem to have no awareness
so do not respond appropriately to the conditions.

Have you ever been threatened or even been hit
by an outstretched arm?

 

[JohnEm]

On the other hand, what we see today often as a "milonguero" may be very experienced but mostly not trained nor skilled. He prefers a comfortable posture and a pleasant close embrace. Many moves are not possible in a close embrace. That's another kind of restriction.
And even if not - they would not even try an enrosque.

Why would they, it isn't necessary and it disruptively
interferes with the connection and the dance.

And by the way, the only thing special about enrosques
in loose hold tango is that tango choreographers gave it
the name. I find myself doing a similar movement in other
open partner dances because the situation called for it
but it wouldn't ever be planned, nor named,
nor ever executed just for the sake of it.

 

[dchester]

Ok, many "occasional dancer" in Europe are skilled in a lot of moves but not trained to do them (counter-)balanced. So they dance something like "Tango de Salon". That is some kind of restriction.
And they dance enrosques but it looks awkward.

On the other hand, what we see today often as a "milonguero" may be very experienced but mostly not trained nor skilled. He prefers a comfortable posture and a pleasant close embrace. Many moves are not possible in a close embrace. That's another kind of restriction.
And even if not - they would not even try an enrosque.

Beside that a new generation of highly skilled and trained performers is leaving the tango schools of BsAs. They are not restricted to a style, but "Tango de Salon" is nearer to their "Escenario" in performances.
And their enrosque is excellent, of course.

Different people have different definitions about who a milonguero even is. Some say that there may be only 5 true milongueros still alive.

Here is a video of Pupi Castello, a milionguero who is no longer with us, dancing with Graciella Gonzalez at a practica.