The Booty Misconception

[JohnEm]

It's actually pretty hard for the untrained eye to determine whether someone's bad posture is the result of skeletal formation or bad habits. Anatomy books love to give a picture of how the femur is set in the hip socket, but dig a little deeper and you find that not only can it be sitting quite differently from person to another, but that the angle of the femoral neck can be quite drastically different as well.

Some of us here do effectively have trained eyes, not professionally maybe,
but based on our own experiences of working on our own bodies and dance.
One clue is to look how and where partners connect and separately
how they stand and walk when apart. It's often quite visible.

Clearly you know your own body but surely the point is that we should dance
what we are and not adopt some artificial bearing because teacher says or the
unnatural connection demands. From my own experience I would maintain
that most of us can change our posture for the better outside the dance;
that improvement should be maintained as our normality in life and thus
brought to the dance. Because of my own personal physical situation,
a back injury and a later unrelated operation, I have corrected my bad posture
resulting from unconscious pain minimising and strengthened my body
more than once. Once started you have to continue.

Anyway, my point is that it's easy to judge other people's bodies and use of them because we aren't IN them. We don't know about their skeletons, their injuries, their ligaments and tendons. We barely know about our own. Do we as a culture spend too much time sitting and not enough time strengthening? Oh yeah! Is a weak core always the answer to what you might perceive as "bad posture"? No.

But you are talking about a minority and we should not be generalising
based on a minority. But we surely can generalise about the damaging influences
impact of sedentary lifestyles on average bodies which also affects those
with physical differences, be they large or small.

Without further analysing I will make the observation that Tango is the only
dance I know of with such exaggerated posterior emphasising postures and
some of that is rather more than just fashion but directly attributable
to teaching style and/or unfit non-dancing bodies.

 

[JohnEm]

You know there is a thing called lordosis, which affects most women that are or were engaged in ballet or gymnastics that many tango followers come from. I know cause I have it and my tango teacher always corrects my butt sticking out but it is only my natural pose because of this particular thing with my spine.

Yes of course there is something called lordosis,
but often it isn't because of a spine abnormality
but more usually owing to lack of support muscles,
abdomen, back and deep lower core/pelvic support.

You sort of make my point, your teacher can tell you
for ever to tuck in your butt but that will never feel
natural until your muscles can put it there without
you thinking it and thus having to think it while dancing.

And I rather think it would regarded as a bad thing
in both ballet and gymnastics even though certain
presentational poses seem to encourage it.

I've just "borrowed" this post from a ballet forum:

The use of the abdominal muscles is crucial in correcting the back,
along with an understanding of alignment and weight placement.
Ballet will do this, but only IF taught correctly and constantly corrected
until the student not only understands, but is able to maintain the alignment.

One of the biggest problems I see with this is with students
who ONLY try to correct it in class, and do not work on it 24/7.
It has to become a habit, a way of life, and if they think they can correct it
just in class or PT sessions, they are delusional. I watch the way they walk
and stand when not in class, and see why it is not working for them IN class.
They have to be committed, and focused enough to carry the correction
outside of the ballet classroom.

AND..........this is important, they HAVE TO LOSE THE BACKPACKS!!!!!!!!!
I cannot stress enough the damage that these things are doing to
the posture problems we have in ballet.

 

[dchester]

You know there is a thing called lordosis, which affects most women that are or were engaged in ballet or gymnastics that many tango followers come from. I know cause I have it and my tango teacher always corrects my butt sticking out but it is only my natural pose because of this particular thing with my spine.

Unfortunately, too many people think that what is "natural" for them, is true for everyone else. It's not. People have different body types and alignments. While I try to encourage people towards a "classic" style embrace, I also tell them that being relaxed and comfortable is very important. If you can't get comfortable one way, do something else.

 

[sixela]

Come on, you cannot know who or how I have danced.

It's a pretty safe bet you haven't danced with Noelia. Not even when she has loose hair ;-).

 

[sixela]

Some of us here do effectively have trained eyes

And 80% of those who will claim to have trained eyes while posting in a forum will merely think they have trained eyes, especially if they seem all too darn sure of themselves when they claim to know things with certainty.

The other 20% will know.

The 80% will think they're in the 20%.

 

[JohnEm]

And 80% of those who will claim to have trained eyes while posting in a forum will merely think they have trained eyes, especially if they seem all too darn sure of themselves when they claim to know things with certainty.

The other 20% will know.

The 80% will think they're in the 20%.

It seems to me that the certain ironic contradictions of your comment
escapes you. Certainties of judgement are certainly coming from you.
Even those who you think don't know are entitled to express an opinion.

The only certainty and the only reality in tango is your own and
progress can and does change even those perceptions.

 

[sixela]

Indeed progress does. What it did in my case is make me less emphatically sure about asserting things in other people's tango. _Especially_ things divined only by looking at them and not dancing with them.

 

[tangobro]

Also, keep in mind some countries' populations just tend to have more badonkadonk.

Also some cultures tend to be more appreciative of women with more badonkadonk

Some of the comments about "good" posture seem to me to engage some culturally bound value judgments.

Noelia Hurtado & I think that's Virginia Pandolfi illustrated, are mentioned in this conversation. A woman I dance with who shares Noelia's & Virginia's body type used to be very self conscious about dancing in an embrace, worried that people would think she was "thrusting her butt out" like Tom Tango says. She said seeing videos of Noelia & Virginia liberated her. She became more comfortable about dancing in an embrace. She has also in recent years taken classes with both, & to me her dance feels even better.

I've seen Noelia & Virginia on & off of the dance floor, walking & standing naturally, in heels & without. It does not seem to me that in any of those contexts either is "thrusting her butt out".

Here is Noelia dancing without heels while illustrating a concept that she & Carlitos asked workshop attendees to explore:


Virginia Pandolfi with Jonathan Aguero dancing milonga:

 

[Steve Pastor]

Love the musicality in the first video.

 

[sixela]

You'd dance with her? Gosh, Steve, think of the very bad example you'd be setting. Think of the children!

 

[JohnEm]

Also some cultures tend to be more appreciative of women with more badonkadonk

Some of the comments about "good" posture seem to me to engage some culturally bound value judgments.

It's nothing to do with cultural value judgements
but it is all about healthy postures.

I saw an athletic and acrobatic outdoor performance on Saturday
evening in Northern France by a troupe of about 20/24
young men and women. There were no props, it was totally
what they could do together, building pyramids, walking
on shoulders, standing one legged on a hand and performing
movements with a balance that would put most tango dancers
to shame. There were no sway backs, everyone was totally
centered, they had to be for what they doing; both supporters
and the balancers.

Even better, on Sunday evening I was at a quite informal milonga
in a hotel bar. Dancers of mixed ages had no sway backs there either.

I've seen Noelia & Virginia on & off of the dance floor, walking & standing naturally, in heels & without. It does not seem to me that in any of those contexts either is "thrusting her butt out".

We can all refuse to see what we don't want to see.
A perceived sticking out butt is a consequence of bad posture,
maybe resulting from lack of lower core. In the first
5 seconds of the Noelia clip you can actually see her
internal organs pushing at her abdominal wall probably
because her tilted pelvis is tipping them out.

In the second video it is all very clear in vivid black and white.

And none of this touches on the effects and limitations
on the dance of either of them. Plus the unfortunate effect
their performances and lessons may have on potential tango dancers.

 

[Zoopsia59]

In the first
5 seconds of the Noelia clip you can actually see her
internal organs pushing at her abdominal wall probably
because her tilted pelvis is tipping them out.

Just looks like belly fat to me. I don't know how you determined that it is her internal organs sticking out.

 

[Mladenac]

Just looks like belly fat to me. I don't know how you determined that it is her internal organs sticking out.

x-ray vision

 

[JohnEm]

Just looks like belly fat to me. I don't know how you determined that it is her internal organs sticking out.

x-ray vision

Thanks (not!) for answering for me, but no X-ray vision needed.
It's personal experience actually.

Yes, I could be wrong but then so could Zoopsia.
Noelia seems to be heavier than before but
midriff fat doesn't bulge like that unless pushed
or at least weighted (from the inside).

And also in my experience, to stand and/or dance
like that you need to either let your pelvic floor and
associated pelvis stabilising muscles go (or have
none as Franklin describes) and that usually means
your stomach muscles too.

On a more constructive note, in fact I found that
attempts to target and engage the stomach muscles
as a singular objective for the dance was doomed
to failure even though I had strong stomach muscles.
Targeting the pelvic control muscles was much better
and although it took time to exercise and make the control
permanent the result was naturally engaged stomach muscles
and a neutrally positioned pelvis. I believe that is what
we should aim for in normal life and in tango (all dance
in fact). It should then be possible to easily and almost
naturally rotate the pelvis for dissociation - some people
can do this without any education or thinking at all.

 

[Mladenac]

A perceived sticking out butt is a consequence of bad posture,

It's your opinion