The Crash of Tango Worlds

...Are there social dancers who focus mainly on BR tango?


rrr, ja in my hometown is a group of BR-Tango dancers who often appear on argentine tango milongas. They frequently use to stir up the line of dance with their zig-zag-course which requires more space than Neotango learners actually need.
 
... least popular BR style (excepting only Viennese Waltz, which isn't much danced socially).

Interesting, but I can understand it. Viennese Waltz is too vigorous and boring to be done more than once an evening, if that. However, one of my favorite dances is a Viennese style turning waltz, but done at around 130-140 bpm, and with lots of hesitations.

Okay, back on topic.
 
This dicussion is the first time I've heard anyone consider that BR tango and AT compete anyway. The crossover (in terms of dancers) is quite small. Novices not really committed to either may drift between them, and more dedicated dancers with an interest in both will go where they like, regardless of a competitive hard sell.

On a positive, if anyone targets you as a competitor, you should be flattered: they obviously think you are doing something right, or they wouldn't bother.

Not sure how it is on your side of the pond, but I have acquaintances here who do ballroom and occasionally show up at AT events. Some of them would make good AT people, but their usual commentary is that they'd have to unlearn too much and "lose" their ballroom to learn AT, so instead they come to a occasional milongas an create a bit of havoc, because they don't understand how the dance really works on the floor.

As for teachers who get nervous that they will lose studetns to AT, well...my partner of the time and I of the time left ballroom to dance strictly AT 7 years ago and so did the person I am with now and a few other people in the tango community where I am now, so there may indeed be some validity there.

ALso, as someone else mentioned, FT ballroom teachers who make their living with classes may also pick up some AT to throw it in their basket, as it were, possibly teaching privates if not classes. So even if they teach ballroom tango, they might still offer AT to the students on the side so again, that may lead to direct competition with an actual AT event being put on.

I've been through most of this myself (dance politics and social infighting), unfortunately enough, and most of it isn't pleasant to remember. I'm sorry that it's happening to the OP.
 
Errmm... maybe speak to the ballroom teacher? :confused:

Actually it's not true; I did speak with the BR teacher when she back stabbed our salsa teacher. It didn't change anything whatsoever unfortunately.

I just never spoke with her regarding the tango conflict.
 
Not sure how it is on your side of the pond ...

I'm still a relative newbie to the AT world, so my observations may be wide of the mark, and only really reflect my local scene, but I don't see many people from the BR world 'dabbling' with AT, but a few who have taken on tango as an additional family of dance styles, or have made the crossover, leaving BR behind.

There is the category of dancers who are primarily BR social dancers, who attend events where the DJ may play just a handful of AT songs as part of a mixed evening of dancing. Usually, they get up and dance their choreographed routine of pastiche tango they have been taught by a teacher at a dance school, and they seem to genuinely believe that they are dancing tango, when of course, they are not. I was involved, last year, (as demo assistant) in a beginners class at a dance school, that inevitably drew most of its members from that circle, but two by two (they never mixed and wouldn't rotate) they all dropped out, disappointed that we weren't going to teach them what they already knew they wanted. I see some of them, occasionally, at my own social events. I have no objection to them taking whatever pleasure they can from their tango-pastiche, and I too, play a few tango songs. The comical thing is that they dance exactly the same thing, whatever you play.

One or two of them are very good BR dancers BTW, and their technique, including posture, would put many AT dancers to shame, so its not a matter of the standard being attained, but of a mindset.

But back to the issue: I don't find people say they have to leave BR behind, in order to dance AT, and I think the numbers that want to add tango to their repertoire (as I do), or to adopt it as their preferred or sole style to the exclusion of BR, are about evenly balanced. What I do find is that there is little or no support for the transition process, and many people from a BR background receive no useful guidance that would smooth the difficult crossover. They sink or swim. I drowned, myself, and had to start again from scratch, and it was a bruising experience.

An oddity of the groups that I have been associated with is that there are usually three or four salsa dancers and a couple of modern jivers for every BR dancer (who are therefore a tiny minority), but they seem to be readily accepted into the tango world, with none of the negative comment or irrational prejudice that BR dancers seem to attract. If more tango teachers had some solid background in BR technique, they would be far better placed to help beginning tango dancers in the transition to new requirements, but such help is very thin on the ground. Usually, the posture problems that arise result from basic faults in the dancers' BR technique (ie they are bad dancers, or have been badly taught). It isn't that they can't adapt their BR ')(' shaped hold to the top down 'A' shaped embrace: they can't actually do either. They are standing with their weight back over their heels, quite unable to create a viable frame in any style. Their new teachers seem to assume that this is normal, and tell them off for being BR dancers, instead of helping them to stand up properly (possibly for the first time ever) and learn to dance.

Has this got anything to do with this discussion? Yes, sort of.

I have never seen regular BR dancers attend tango events to 'have a go', but where it happpens, I can readily understand the havoc it might cause. Probably the category least likely to attend a tango event casually is the pastiche tango dancer. They would say something like "You mean you dance this style all night?", which for them would mean repeating their 32-bar routine, exclusively with each other, ad nauseam.

I can't see any point in any teacher worrying about losing dancers to other styles (or at least to styles not offered by that teacher). People's interests often change, over time, and if they didn't go through stages in which they favoured a variety of styles, they would probably give up and take up some other hobby. A lot of dancers seem to start with the very unstructured and informal modern jive, and accepting its limitations, as they progress, look for more challenging dances. Anyone providing a narrow range of styles, such as AT, to the exclusion of others just has to accept that there will be a steady flow of people in and out of the style. Arguably, they are competing with fishing and all sorts of other leisure interests, and not just the bogey-man BR salesman. They could offer a wider range of styles, if customer retention was their key goal, and it's their choice to specialise.

ALso, as someone else mentioned, FT ballroom teachers who make their living with classes may also pick up some AT to throw it in their basket

Well I'm dead against anyone pinching a bit of tango (you know: attend a few beginners classes, take the odd lesson/workshop and then launch of the the scene as a 'tango teacher'). I've been accused of doing just that, myself, frequently - usually behind my back, but I take no notice. But I'm all for dance teachers (particularly full-time ones) embracing a wide variety of styles, as long as they do them properly. But the statement I quote here contains an obvious fallacy: recast it as "Full-time dance teachers who make their living ..." would be fine. Excepting high-level coaches in dancesport, I know of no FT ballroom teachers. None. BR is far too small a segment of the dance world to support anyone full time. At the very least, they probably embrace Latin American too, and often R&R, Salsa and proabably Modern Sequence. In my teaching society, new members qualified in freestyle outnumber BR faculty members by 20:1. BR is a very small, niche group of styles (five, of course - all different), and it seems to be in terminal decline, unfortunately.

The very fact that all the range of styles that the typical full-time teacher might offer get rolled into this general term 'BR' (and it is frequently used by tango dancers perjoratively) might be the reason why so few tango teachers can help dancers from other styles in their cross-over issues.

So if a dance teacher starts to offer AT, the tango community should be pleased (assuming some basic competence from the teacher) that someone else is devoting effort to growing the tango dance community. More dancers means more people to attend social events. More dancers means more people looking to attend workshops and special events. More dancers means more business. In a competitive world (and dance teaching can be very competitive, particularly at times, like now, when money is tight), you have to be good to survive and prosper. Competition is a good thing: it keeps us on our toes.
 
Actually it's not true; I did speak with the BR teacher when she back stabbed our salsa teacher.
Knife fights, cor. Sounds authentically Argentinian, at least. :D

On a more serious note, I've found that there's a wide range of attitudes from different teachers towards other teachers.

  • Some are lovely - they're nice to me, both to my face and to our common students, and they're very open to publicizing my ventures (where such ventures don't clash with their own of course) and cooperating to help develop the local tango scenes.
  • Some are neutral - we simply ignore each other. That's fine too.
  • Some are "dog in the manger" - they will try and protect their market at all costs, insisting that their style is best / most authentic / etc.
  • And some - a very few - are just malicious. I've had personal abuse, poison pen letters, facebook stalking, you name it.
The trick is to work with the nice ones, and ignore the others. But above all, the trick is to create an environment where people want to come and learn and come and dance - and then to market this environment as much and as positively as you can.
 
I'm still a relative newbie to the AT world, so my observations may be wide of the mark, and only really reflect my local scene, but I don't see many people from the BR world 'dabbling' with AT, but a few who have taken on tango as an additional family of dance styles, or have made the crossover, leaving BR behind.

There is the category of dancers who are primarily BR social dancers, who attend events where the DJ may play just a handful of AT songs as part of a mixed evening of dancing. Usually, they get up and dance their choreographed routine of pastiche tango they have been taught by a teacher at a dance school, and they seem to genuinely believe that they are dancing tango, when of course, they are not. I was involved, last year, (as demo assistant) in a beginners class at a dance school, that inevitably drew most of its members from that circle, but two by two (they never mixed and wouldn't rotate) they all dropped out, disappointed that we weren't going to teach them what they already knew they wanted. I see some of them, occasionally, at my own social events. I have no objection to them taking whatever pleasure they can from their tango-pastiche, and I too, play a few tango songs. The comical thing is that they dance exactly the same thing, whatever you play.

One or two of them are very good BR dancers BTW, and their technique, including posture, would put many AT dancers to shame, so its not a matter of the standard being attained, but of a mindset.

But back to the issue: I don't find people say they have to leave BR behind, in order to dance AT, and I think the numbers that want to add tango to their repertoire (as I do), or to adopt it as their preferred or sole style to the exclusion of BR, are about evenly balanced. What I do find is that there is little or no support for the transition process, and many people from a BR background receive no useful guidance that would smooth the difficult crossover. They sink or swim. I drowned, myself, and had to start again from scratch, and it was a bruising experience.

An oddity of the groups that I have been associated with is that there are usually three or four salsa dancers and a couple of modern jivers for every BR dancer (who are therefore a tiny minority), but they seem to be readily accepted into the tango world, with none of the negative comment or irrational prejudice that BR dancers seem to attract. If more tango teachers had some solid background in BR technique, they would be far better placed to help beginning tango dancers in the transition to new requirements, but such help is very thin on the ground. Usually, the posture problems that arise result from basic faults in the dancers' BR technique (ie they are bad dancers, or have been badly taught). It isn't that they can't adapt their BR ')(' shaped hold to the top down 'A' shaped embrace: they can't actually do either. They are standing with their weight back over their heels, quite unable to create a viable frame in any style. Their new teachers seem to assume that this is normal, and tell them off for being BR dancers, instead of helping them to stand up properly (possibly for the first time ever) and learn to dance.

Has this got anything to do with this discussion? Yes, sort of.

I have never seen regular BR dancers attend tango events to 'have a go', but where it happpens, I can readily understand the havoc it might cause. Probably the category least likely to attend a tango event casually is the pastiche tango dancer. They would say something like "You mean you dance this style all night?", which for them would mean repeating their 32-bar routine, exclusively with each other, ad nauseam.

I can't see any point in any teacher worrying about losing dancers to other styles (or at least to styles not offered by that teacher). People's interests often change, over time, and if they didn't go through stages in which they favoured a variety of styles, they would probably give up and take up some other hobby. A lot of dancers seem to start with the very unstructured and informal modern jive, and accepting its limitations, as they progress, look for more challenging dances. Anyone providing a narrow range of styles, such as AT, to the exclusion of others just has to accept that there will be a steady flow of people in and out of the style. Arguably, they are competing with fishing and all sorts of other leisure interests, and not just the bogey-man BR salesman. They could offer a wider range of styles, if customer retention was their key goal, and it's their choice to specialise.



Well I'm dead against anyone pinching a bit of tango (you know: attend a few beginners classes, take the odd lesson/workshop and then launch of the the scene as a 'tango teacher'). I've been accused of doing just that, myself, frequently - usually behind my back, but I take no notice. But I'm all for dance teachers (particularly full-time ones) embracing a wide variety of styles, as long as they do them properly. But the statement I quote here contains an obvious fallacy: recast it as "Full-time dance teachers who make their living ..." would be fine. Excepting high-level coaches in dancesport, I know of no FT ballroom teachers. None. BR is far too small a segment of the dance world to support anyone full time. At the very least, they probably embrace Latin American too, and often R&R, Salsa and proabably Modern Sequence. In my teaching society, new members qualified in freestyle outnumber BR faculty members by 20:1. BR is a very small, niche group of styles (five, of course - all different), and it seems to be in terminal decline, unfortunately.

The very fact that all the range of styles that the typical full-time teacher might offer get rolled into this general term 'BR' (and it is frequently used by tango dancers perjoratively) might be the reason why so few tango teachers can help dancers from other styles in their cross-over issues.

So if a dance teacher starts to offer AT, the tango community should be pleased (assuming some basic competence from the teacher) that someone else is devoting effort to growing the tango dance community. More dancers means more people to attend social events. More dancers means more people looking to attend workshops and special events. More dancers means more business. In a competitive world (and dance teaching can be very competitive, particularly at times, like now, when money is tight), you have to be good to survive and propser. Competition is a good thing: it keeps us on our toes.

:notworth:
 
I'm still a relative newbie to the AT world, so my observations may be wide of the mark, and only really reflect my local scene, but I don't see many people from the BR world 'dabbling' with AT, but a few who have taken on tango as an additional family of dance styles, or have made the crossover, leaving BR behind.
It's interesting, I've been attending WCS classes for the past few months, and the teacher (a ballroom teacher) also adds in a little taster AT session at the end of the class. And yes, it's a routine (I bite my lip). But because the teacher comes from a BR background, I do see some BR dancers there. They're not noticeably more difficult to lead than dancers from a MJ / salsa background, although I do have to adjust their posture / arm holds a little occasionally.


But back to the issue: I don't find people say they have to leave BR behind, in order to dance AT, and I think the numbers that want to add tango to their repertoire (as I do), or to adopt it as their preferred or sole style to the exclusion of BR, are about evenly balanced.
Yes - I'd never tell anyone to give up dancing, or even learning, other styles. Anymore than I'd tell a 5-year-old child to stop learning English and focus on Maths. Sure. once the dancer gets to "higher education", some specialisation is inevitable, but let's face it, most people will never want to get to that level.

What I do find is that there is little or no support for the transition process, and many people from a BR background receive no useful guidance that would smooth the difficult crossover. They sink or swim. I drowned, myself, and had to start again from scratch, and it was a bruising experience.
I'd guess that you found your background a major hindrance at the start, but that now you may find it an advantage. But as we've discussed at length, the "support" organisations such as the IDTA provide for learning AT is, well, not particularly great.
 
I'd guess that you found your background a major hindrance at the start, but that now you may find it an advantage. But as we've discussed at length, the "support" organisations such as the IDTA provide for learning AT is, well, not particularly great.

Oh yes, in hindsight, the last thing I should have done was to prepare for the IDTA Diploma while I was still a novice dancer in the style. My professional coach couldn't help me with the tango, and er, neither could my first tango teacher .... ;)

And, of course, we both know from our knowledge of the syllabus, that the only sort of tango that will emerge from that syllabus is pastiche. Looking at it with rose-tinted glasses, it has the potential (just) to lead someone in the right direction, but all the input that candidates will receive from the system will lead them, gently but firmly, in the opposite direction.
 
I always think of BR tango as a sub-section of ballroom dancing. Are there social dancers who focus mainly on BR tango?

I used to dance social ballroom for years and years. Our teacher was not interested in teaching for comp, and neither were his students. In ten years I can remember only one couple switching to comp ballroom.
In my neck of the woods the social ballroom events and the milongas are different, separated, distinct events with no crossovers.
 
It's interesting, I've been attending WCS classes for the past few months, and the teacher (a ballroom teacher) also adds in a little taster AT session at the end of the class.
Perhaps your teacher is trying to nurture a swango scene!
 

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