The "dark side" of Tango scene

[Gssh]

And there's the book by Vicente Rossi, Cosas de negros (which I haven't read), which touches upon the subject. I'd like to get my hands on a copy of the book to see what he has to say.

1958 reprint of the 1926 edition, with new foreword

I am somewhat hesitant about trying to disentangle the different strands of heritage in tango.
Things that are part of it (in loosely descending order of confidence)
-central european influence in that it is a partner dance
-African influence in that the tango is to some extent a response and adaptation of a (now lost?) traditon of afro-argentine dances (though there is still urugayan candombe)
-italian influences (singing style)
-central european/jewish influences ("singing" violins, the bandoneon/accordion was introduced by jewish musicians)
-arab influences (potentially the habanera rhythm through el andaluz)

and probably much more. There is not a lot of scholarly work that i could find, and the art history of love is very much a scholarly work of an art historian specializing in the afro-atlantic world applied, i.e. it does not attempt to describe the tango, it attempts to describe the african influence on the tango. When it comes up in discussions it seems to me that it is often read like a survey text about tango , which it isn't (and which i am pretty sure the author would agree with that). This is similar to how the slew of scholarly works that come from a feminist perspective attempt to trace the function of gender, sex, and their perceptions in tango. And how a hypothetical marxist reading of tango would all be about poverty, rich people slumming, the assimilation of low culture into high society, and so on.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I think there is a somewhat established idea that this is mostly a difference in what the natural walk on hard surfaces is likewhen wearing a hard soled shoe (which allows heel strikes) and when being barefoot/ wearing soft shoes (Daout 2009).

I personally think that argentine tango gets its heel strike probably from its 19th century origins where people mostly wore shoes, and maybe links with argenting folkloric dance - which are all about wearing boots and having heels and stomping.

Interestingly enough this suggests that what i am seeing at the moment - that both leaders and followers seem to be moving from hard leather soles on tango shoes to a more ballroom style flexible sole - is probably changing the character of the dance (or this change in preference is a consequence of the character of the dance already having changed).

Oh that distinction, yes, I forgot John was referring to how indigenous peoples walked, especially in Africa. There have been lots of discussions about that and the use of different muscles (the glutes mostly), which Europeans and their descendants do not use as much and how that has affected our posture and spinal health.

By the way, I wear and have worn both sneakers and hard-sole shoes, although mostly sneakers (trainers) for everyday getting around.

By the way, I'm not convinced that AT always lands exclusively on the heel. Not all dancers do that. I'm not sure there is a right way and a wrong way. I don't think it can be attributed simply to the habit of wearing shoes. Interestingly, I much prefer tango shoes with leather soles than the so-called suede bottoms, and I've never liked split sole shoes or dance sneakers.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

1958 reprint of the 1926 edition, with new foreword

I am somewhat hesitant about trying to disentangle the different strands of heritage in tango.
Things that are part of it (in loosely descending order of confidence)
-central european influence in that it is a partner dance
-African influence in that the tango is to some extent a response and adaptation of a (now lost?) traditon of afro-argentine dances (though there is still urugayan candombe)
-italian influences (singing style)
-central european/jewish influences ("singing" violins, the bandoneon/accordion was introduced by jewish musicians)
-arab influences (potentially the habanera rhythm through el andaluz)

and probably much more.

Have you read Rossi's book? It's hard to find (at a reasonable price). Yes, the heritage is complicated and murky but you've listed some possible influences. But let's try to keep the musical tango and the dance tango influences separate for the time being because they are different. The musical influences -- Italian opera, classical training, bandoneon, the payador tradition -- are one thing, the dance influences another (although at a later stage of development there is mutual fertilization between the music and the dance).
The Arab influence through the habanera (?) may be too remote to have had any significant impact.

By the way, there is a lot of scholarly work on the tango (mostly its history and history of the music) but it's not easy to find outside of Argentina (or a very good library) and is mostly in Spanish, of course. I've been reading a bunch of scholarly articles on tango recently, published in the last 30 years and some of them are quite good. Not a lot of original research on the early origins though. Interesting about the Marxist reading because it pretty much accurately describes the development of the early tango as told by historians.

 

[LadyLeader]

for those who want to look at the text in Spanish try this link - Right down corner has a button to increase the font size

Vicente Rossi 1958 Cosas De Negros : Vicente Rossi (1871-1945) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Libro Cosas de negros del escritor uruguayo Vicente Rossi (1871-1945). Fue digitalizado por Creative Commons Uruguay, en el marco del Proyecto autores.uy:...

archive.org

 

[Steve Pastor]

is somebody here knowledgeable about country and western dancing?

lol
Country dancing is informal. Because of cowboy boots, country western dance is more likely to feature a flat-footed glide with some heel and toe touches rather than a lot of "toe type" dancing.[5] In addition to a quiet upper body, there is very little hip movement. Pumping of the hands, bouncing, and waddling are not encouraged.[6]
"Dance boots," are IMO a product of the competition scene, which is IMO responsible for the "balrooming" of CW dance.
It always seemed to me that "close embrace" was more likely to result in shorter steps and landing less on the heel that an open embrace.
Most of my shoes now are what one manufactuter calls "zero drop," which encourages a more natural (shoeless) landing of the forefoot rather than heel, and a more forward center of gravity. "Born to Run" goes into shoes in great depth.
When dance AT or CW, or hike, I still wear shoes / boots with "tradtional" heels. I've danced AT a few times in the "bare foot" (not 5 toes ! ) shoes, and I'm not sure I've got the hang of that yet, but it depends a lot on the partner.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

for those who want to look at the text in Spanish try this link - Right down corner has a button to increase the font size

Vicente Rossi 1958 Cosas De Negros : Vicente Rossi (1871-1945) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Libro Cosas de negros del escritor uruguayo Vicente Rossi (1871-1945). Fue digitalizado por Creative Commons Uruguay, en el marco del Proyecto autores.uy:...

archive.org

Thanks. There is (I just discovered) a revised edition that is currently in print with a different title. It's available from Amazon from one of those print-on-demand outfits, but it's inexpensive. At least, I believe they are the same. The title is Origenes Africanos del Tango:Aportes al Folklore Rioplatense.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

It always seemed to me that "close embrace" was more likely to result in shorter steps and landing less on the heel that an open embrace.

I'm not so sure about that. Shorter steps in crowded spaces, yes, but you decide how you step and what part of the foot you land on, even when you're very close.

 

[Rabbit]

It always seemed to me that "close embrace" was more likely to result in shorter steps and landing less on the heel that an open embrace.

I think it's just as easy to take long steps in close embrace. The partner stepping backwards moves their leg first, so it isn't in the way.

I've tried various shoes including regular dress shoes, street shoes of various types, barefoot/socks (I actually recommend everyone try this once to feel the direct connection to the floor and how shoes change it), and my current preference is for split sole dance sneakers at anything other than an extremely formal milonga - for me I like how a more flexible shoe affects muscle activation in my feet/legs and it also cushions impact on non-sprung dance floors. I'm also not a fan of the aesthetics of purpose built men's tango shoes in general.

 

[Steve Pastor]

You COULD.
But stand and put your weight as far forward as you can while remaining stationary.
Your are probably "gripping the floor," ie pushing into it.
Move your center forward enough to "fall forward."
I'm going to guess your heel will come off the floor before your toes / forefoot.

Take a look at figures 9 & 10 here.

Normal human locomotion | O&P Virtual Library

www.oandplibrary.org

If your step is short, you won't be raising that heel very far off the floor.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Yes, you can take long steps even when dancing apilado, but your center should still be in front of your midfoot.

 

[Rabbit]

But why does that affect how long a step you can take in close embrace? if you move your body forward, your partner also moves back.

 

[Brummbaer]

You COULD.
But stand and put your weight as far forward as you can while remaining stationary.
Your are probably "gripping the floor," ie pushing into it.
Move your center forward enough to "fall forward."
I'm going to guess your heel will come off the floor before your toes / forefoot.

Take a look at figures 9 & 10 here.

Normal human locomotion | O&P Virtual Library

www.oandplibrary.org

If your step is short, you won't be raising that heel very far off the floor.

Aren't you missing the associated knee bend and any consequential changes in height (not bobbing when walking, but you do change height sometimes for a deeper step)? You're not emulating the circus clown's pose in long shoes. You can do a heel lead, toe lead or a flat, or change part way through (as some of the maestros of the past have used).

 

[JohnEm]

Aren't you missing the associated knee bend and any consequential changes in height (not bobbing when walking, but you do change height sometimes for a deeper step)? You're not emulating the circus clown's pose in long shoes. You can do a heel lead, toe lead or a flat, or change part way through (as some of the maestros of the past have used).

Well I don't see the relevance of simplistic stick men drawings
when considering the action of two people moving as one.
For sure the pelvis doesn't remain rigidly orientated as shown.
For many tango dancers its orientated forwards tipping out
its contents onto the abdominal wall. Incorrectly of course
but it is a result of today's sedentary lifestyles and the loss
of strength/activity of certain crucial core muscles, especially
those stabilising the pelvis.

You need a physical, theoretical and practical understanding
of the actions of two people dancing as one to be able to write
about and/or teach it. In my experience there really is too little
knowledge and too many really bad explanations.

This is my "favourite" bad one:

Clicking on the play arrow will go to the appropriate place.

Their whole construction is artificial and stressed.
They are not alone, there are many others.

Osvaldo Natucci apparently called Ricardo Vidort
"The Architect of Tango". One thing is certain, he knew
how to dance as a couple chest to chest in the most
natural I know. Bear in mind that evolution missed the
concept of two people dancing together in any way!
Natural dancing was apart.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

You can do a heel lead, toe lead or a flat, or change part way through (as some of the maestros of the past have used).

Flat would be terrible though. You'd be slapping the floor and go thudding along. There should be some foot flexion.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Their whole construction is artificial and stressed.
They are not alone, there are many others.

Osvaldo Natucci apparently called Ricardo Vidort
"The Architect of Tango". One thing is certain, he knew
how to dance as a couple chest to chest in the most
natural I know.

They did say a couple of "good" things, however: that the embrace is already the dance, at least it's initiation and that it can be a "thing of beauty," It's a nice embrace, but, yes, it is stressed and artificial.

Vidort is interesting but far from the only milonguero with a "natural" embrace. Casas, for example, is a very loose, natural dancer but his embrace bears no resemblance to that of Vidort. Nor does Osvaldo Carterry's for that matter. Personally, I don't find Vidort's posture all that natural, he's always pitched forward and looks like he's about to topple over. Now, you can argue that that is the "correct" posture for tango, but that doesn't mean it is natural or relaxed.