The "dark side" of Tango scene

[JournalInTime]

If classes once a week for a year and then three to five classes a week for nine months "doesn't really mean much in tango." I suggest that some of people dancing tango might want to reconsider what "means much".

There are sects within tango. Here are two salient to this discussion:

There are people who see tango as just another social dance. They take – and sometimes eventually teach – courses informed by movement disciplines that include other social dance (e.g., salsa and swing), performance dance (ballet, belly dance, flamenco, whatever), dance-derived fitness (like zumba), non-dance fitness (Pilates, yoga, etc.), and even martial arts. Teachers in this group believe the path to good dancing is courses, lessons, and workshops, which they design to train modern, sedentary people to do something fun and active as soon as possible. They adapt the traditional steps and techniques of tango to be easier to teach and learn, while mostly keeping traditional tango music. They recognize that most potential students come to them after having seen tango performed in a show, and expect to dance like that, and they attempt to meet those expectations.

There are people who consider tango a hallowed artistic tradition of the Río de la Plata region. They want to preserve the traditional steps and techniques, and take great pains to exclude anything that comes from outside. People in this group place importance on maintaining tango codes and customs, among which was the expectation that men wouldn't enter the milonga until they had apprenticed with more-experienced men for a few years . . . and were on probation even then. They often feel that courses are less important than guided practice, and sometimes not important at all. To them, music other than that of the Época de Oro is unacceptable, while the steps of show tango are deemed to fall somewhere between "not for the milonga" and "from other dances, like ballet, and don't even belong in tango shows."

You don't have to pick a side to be on. For instance, I think the codes of the milonga make for a more polite place to dance, I value practice and sharing with peers, and I'm not fond of tango electrónico . . . but I also believe in going to the milonga as soon as possible, taking lots of courses, and adapting the movement techniques of other disciplines and the steps of other dances to keep tango from getting tired.

If you choose a side, you'll never see eye to eye with those on the other side. If, like me, you choose to be a moderate, people on both sides will disagree with you. All of that grumbling gets amplified on an Internet forum. Don't let it discourage you.

It sounds like you're marginally in the first group, and believe that if you've paid for the courses, you have a right to go dance. I'm pretty sure ArbeeNYC leans toward the second group, though I could be wrong. That mostly means that on this forum, you two aren't going to agree very often. It doesn't mean anybody is "right" or "wrong."

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I guess the quotes are there to express doubt? If classes once a week for a year and then three to five classes a week for nine months "doesn't really mean much in tango." I suggest that some of people dancing tango might want to reconsider what "means much".

The quotes are there because it was a quote. Given that traditionally, learning in tango is measured in decades, it really doesn't mean much. That doesn't prevent you from dancing or becoming part of a community though.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Yeah, but people have to get the experience on the dance floor somewhere. Not all practicas are necessarily welcoming either - Tangostudent already explained that he didn't have a satisfactory practica locally.

Sure, you need experience, but that comes with time. I don't know what a satisfactory practica would be for him. I've been to some that where terrible and others that were better. The point is to have an opportunity to practice. If you have a partner, many of your problems are solved.

 

[JournalInTime]

I should add that you'll find people at both ends of the spectrum and everywhere in between at just about any milonga. I've never seen a milonga where every last soul was a course-educated cosmopolitan exploring the wildest limits of tango. I've never seen a milonga where every last soul was a traditionally instructed dancer who hewed strictly to the old ways. So the most important thing is to respect those with differing views.

 

[Tango Student]

People in this group place importance on maintaining tango codes and customs, among which was the expectation that men wouldn't enter the milonga until they had apprenticed with more-experienced men for a few years

I'm genuinely curious, is there any tango scene in the world where this is still done?

It sounds like you're marginally in the first group

I'd say I'm in the group that says a reasonable amount of preparation before actually dancing is a good thing but that one of the main ways we get better at something is by actually doing it. Having danced salsa and bachata for fifteen years I actually appreciate some of the codes.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

...

It sounds like you're marginally in the first group, and believe that if you've paid for the courses, you have a right to go dance. I'm pretty sure ArbeeNYC leans toward the second group, though I could be wrong. That mostly means that on this forum, you two aren't going to agree very often. It doesn't mean anybody is "right" or "wrong."

That was well summarized. And I do lean toward the second group, but since I'm not an 80 year-old milonguero and wasn't born in B.A., I try to keep an open mind about these things. But, yes, I'm very much a traditionalist in tangot. I have to say though that when I first started out I didn't even know such a tradition existed and found the whole tango scene very confusing and off-putting. So for TangoStudent I'd say be patient and give it time. Judging by his handle, he is a "student" after all; and what better time to learn than when you're a student.

 

[JournalInTime]

I'm genuinely curious, is there any tango scene in the world where this is still done?

I have no idea. I doubt it, though. I once spouted that line about "years of apprenticeship blah blah blah" to a visiting Argentine teacher, and he just laughed and said maybe his granddad did that. He said that in modern BsAs, people just go out to the milonga the same way people everywhere go out to any nightclub to have a few drinks, see their friends, and dance a little.

one of the main ways we get better at something is by actually doing it.

Agreed. I'll go out on a limb: I think going to the milonga early and often is a good way to improve.

But I'll qualify that: You still have to keep up the lessons and practices, or all you'll actually learn is the bad habits of the dancers in your area. A common phenomenon around here are girls who start lessons, get "adopted" by (usually older) men who are willing to "teach" them, quit their lessons, and proceed to dance the way those men insist is "right." They're truly awful partners for anybody else. No version of that is okay, for leaders or followers.

 

[Bailango]

There are sects within tango. Here are two salient to this discussion:

There is a lot to unpack here. It may take multiple posts. I do think on an average it takes one to two years before someone can dance in a milonga (for leaders). You are trying to minimally put together technique, navigation, improvisation and musicality. It is not like salsa where after one club lesson people can enjoy haphazard social dancing in their own corner. Tango may be social dance but it is more ballet-like in discipline required to get good.

People progress at different rates. Hence instructor should be honest in providing the feedback about milonga readiness.

It doesn't mean someone shouldn't go dance at milongas. Be selective. Also if you have been dancing for less than six months, it is better to go with a support group. Support group can be your classmates and instructor. That experience of milonga is more rewarding than going solo before you are ready. Or if you are good, make friends with regular folks. You will get dances because you are a friend. Not because you are good.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I'm genuinely curious, is there any tango scene in the world where this is still done?

Unlikely. That was the predominant way of learning in B.A. in the early part of the 20th century. I'm not sure when it fell out of favor though. In the forties maybe? You can still see men practicing together from time to time though in tango. I've done it.

I'd say I'm in the group that says a reasonable amount of preparation before actually dancing is a good thing but that one of the main ways we get better at something is by actually doing it.

Perfectly reasonable. And quite true. It's simply that it takes longer in tango and cliques make matters worse. The trick is to find an outlet, a venue, someplace that allows you to improve gradually without breaking your spirit.

 

[Bailango]

Having danced salsa and bachata for fifteen years I actually appreciate some of the codes.

In some ways those two dances are least ideal dances to know when coming to Tango. Almost in every aspect they end up on being opposite spectrum to Tango.

It is true that only way to get better at social dancing is by actually doing it. What constitutes "actually doing it" differs from salsa to tango. Salsa doesn't have equivalents of practicas, and practicalongas. There are beginner friendly milongas and their are serious snobbish appearing milongas.

Once I was talking to a follower who was fairly new to tango. Few months. Not a bad dancer given few months. She was young, very attractive, etc. She happened to mention that previous week she went to a milonga that has a reputation of being serious, where only high level dancers go (false), snobbish (true), very traditional (true). I asked how was the experience. She said that she cried after she got back home, it was that bad. I felt sorry for her but wasn't surprised by her reply. Later that night I found her being monopolised by a visiting leader. I haven't seen her again since then. It was two years back.

 

[Tango Student]

In some ways those two dances are least ideal dances to know when coming to Tango. Almost in every aspect they end up on being opposite spectrum to Tango.

The body movement of bachata is certainly antipathetical to tango, I don't think salsa is that much more different than tango than, say, lindy hop.

 

[Bailango]

Not necessarily, you are comparing two different things and asking for an absolute form of measurement. I would say that the one informs the other, however, and while knowing them doesn't make you a better dancer of AT, you can never really approach the significance of the dance without them. Of course, outside of B.A., this is much more difficult because there is no shared history, no close contact with the origins of the dance. It's why there's (or was) so much seriousness about it on the part of milongueros in BA. For someone in another part of the world, it's another thing to learn.

I agree that it is important to be informed of the history and other aspects of dance culture that may not be directly relevant to how well you dance.

This may not apply everywhere. I have observed a pattern about it amongst dancers who started tango in last six or seven years. Those who are hobbyists are better overall dancers - technically and musically. Those that have spent more time being informed have relatively less dancing skills but think of themselves highly. Also venturing to teach. Hobbyists dance more traditional. Informed like to do fancy stuff. I don't know why that correlation exists.

 

[Tango Student]

Are you in Pacific Northwest?

Yep.

 

[Bailango]

Yep.

The west coast from Seattle to northern California tends to be lead heavy. Especially in the workshops, lessons and practicas. Many newer followers assume that they are good because they keep getting dances. It is common refrain among leaders that followers don't practice. Speaking to some followers, they don't seem to find value in workshops and lessons. They complain those are geared towards the leaders.

It is good idea to take private from a local female instructor or a couple. Ask for a brutally frank feedback on your tango dancing skills. Tell them it is goal of your private to get that feedback. Most American instructors try to be polite. That hinders getting honest say as it is type assessment of one's dancing. Earlier you know your blind zone the better.

 

[Tango Student]

The west coast from Seattle to northern California tends to be lead heavy. Especially in the workshops, lessons and practicas.

Same with salsa. I've found the milongas here to be pretty balanced, coming from the salsa scene where it's often two or three leads per follow I'm pretty happy with that.

Speaking to some followers, they don't seem to find value in workshops and lessons. They complain those are geared towards the leaders.

There's definitely some truth to that, but I'd say that tango follows get more out of classes than salsa follows.

It is good idea to take private from a local female instructor or a couple.

Agreed, already split a few privates with a local female instructor.

Most American instructors try to be polite.

Again, agreed, the best salsa instructor I ever had had danced salsa professionally in New York City, I never saw anyone actually cry in one of his classes, but there were definitely some people that didn't feel very good about their dancing afterwards. But the ones that stuck with it got better.