The difficulty of learning the other role -- another Lead/Follow inquiry

[leee]

Long story short, I attended a workshop recently focused on maintaining as light a connection as possible (I'm talking LH, FWIW), which made me realize my epistemic shortcomings in terms of the lead/follow dynamic (because if I were to follow based on the principles taught in class, I think I'd just stand there, missing these subtle signals from the leader!), which in turn led me to wonder: can we generalize a rule about who has it harder when trying to learn the other role?

I think that mainly leaders have to fight the tendency to back-lead (which, having followed a little bit, is practically irresistible in the absence of a strong lead), and metaphorically sitting back to respond to the lead's initial proffers -- that seems to me an entirely different lead/follow hermeneutic, thus: LEADS HAVE IT TOUGHEST.

OTOH, mainly follows haven't had to map out the patterns in advance and may suffer from the buffer overruns that are common to beginning leads -- also a different hermeneutic, so FOLLOWS HAVE IT TOUGHEST. But on the third hand, they've likely also experienced a wide range of leading styles, for which they probably have private preferences, and from which they can extrapolate or reverse engineer when they're leading.

What say DF?

 

[bookish]

I find that when I'm leading I can pretty much instantly tell when the follower starts to anticipate/backlead (usually before they do) but when I'm learning to follow I have a bit of trouble telling whether I am or not. If I can tell, I can avoid it. Sometimes, too, the initiation seems to just not be there... might be me, might be the lead.

Leaders do need to know at least some of the details of the follower's movement in order to lead well, even if they can't follow, so they have an advantage there. Followers with no leading experience usually don't have the slightest clue what the leader is doing, which is why watching followers try to teach patterns to leaders is so... awkward. LOL.

For Lindy Hop specifically, stretch & compression feels similar to me between the two roles (except the initiation/response part), and a lot of stuff about moving with your standing leg, pulse, etc, transfers pretty much as-is. When I tried following some ballroom & latin a while ago I also remember thinking the basic idea felt pretty similar, except for the initiation/response cycle itself.

When I'm trying to follow I have the most trouble with arms during turn patterns, especially with wraps, cuddles, etc. Pretty weird to get used to. As a leader I can and do pass my arm over my own head and behind me to make some patterns work, which is a habit I need to break when following.

I don't know enough crossover dancers to make generalizations about who has it harder. I've taught several intermediate followers the basics of leading and they've said it seems way harder and there's more to pay attention to.

 

[Dr Dance]

I suspect that most will cite the others role as being more difficult because most of us are less experienced on the other side.

 

[leee]

[...]Sometimes, too, the initiation seems to just not be there... might be me, might be the lead.

Leaders do need to know at least some of the details of the follower's movement in order to lead well, even if they can't follow, so they have an advantage there. Followers with no leading experience usually don't have the slightest clue what the leader is doing, which is why watching followers try to teach patterns to leaders is so... awkward. LOL.

[...]

I don't know enough crossover dancers to make generalizations about who has it harder. I've taught several intermediate followers the basics of leading and they've said it seems way harder and there's more to pay attention to.

Yeah, a handful of us met up once and we switched roles, which maybe wasn't the most productive thing we could've done since at that point in that arrangement we had novice leaders dancing with novice follows.

As a leader, I know the vague geography of where the follow is going to go, and I know where I'm supposed to go (theoretically, anyway), so yeah, I can see this point. Of course, the flipside is that if I'm trying to show a beginning follow what to do beyond a basic, a lot of times I have no clue, either!

Yeah, bandwidth issues are going to be the most immediate concern for them!

 

[leee]

I suspect that most will cite the others role as being more difficult because most of us are less experienced on the other side.

Absolutely true, especially for us non-teachers!

 

[Siggav]

I lead and follow in blues pretty comfortably while in lindy I mostly follow but have started leading a bit as well, I've also led balboa a bit but only pretty basic pure bal, I can't do throw outs or any of the more intricate bal-swing stuff as a lead.

Anyway I found leading blues pretty easy to start doing after having done following, while lindy is more tricky, blues has fewer moves per se and there's less of a pattern to learn so switching is pretty straight forward as long as you're comfortable being clear and commited with your movement and initiating it.

Lindy I can sort of lead generic "swing" type of dancing but my swingouts still need serious work, I think a beginner lead wouldn't know the difference but because I've followed awesome swingouts I know that the ones I lead aren't quite good enough with the stretch and compression and smoothness that should be there, also because the footwork is a bit more patterned I have a tendency to rockstep with the wrong foot when leading etc although that's getting better.

Floorcraft is very hard as well but I'm getting better there too, again harder in lindy than blues because the dance is faster and there is bigger movement going on in the dancers around you.

Fundamentally there's a different mindset between leading and following, when following you have to be happy to basically keep yourself in a state where you are easy to be moved or redirected while when leading you have to be very grounded and present and trust that if you move yourself confidently your follow will be able to follow you.

As for which one is more difficult I think they're probably roughly equal and with different challenges, you worry a lot more about being boring when you're leading while when following you have to master the fine art of putting your personality into the dance while still dancing with your partner and doing what they suggest + there is more balance, spins and turns required in general.

 

[Generalist]

As for which one is more difficult I think they're probably roughly equal and with different challenges, you worry a lot more about being boring when you're leading while when following you have to master the fine art of putting your personality into the dance while still dancing with your partner and doing what they suggest + there is more balance, spins and turns required in general.

I constantly worry about being boring when I'm leading. Instructors say that women are happy with well executed basics but I find their happiness lasts about 45 seconds.

 

[vit]

It's not that simple and different things are making different followers happy. Generally less is more, so dancing smaller amount of well executed figures has more chances for that "happiness" to last. But it's just a general rule

In social dancing, it's very important how it "feels". Dancing technically correct doesn't always mean that it feels good - sometimes it's just the opposite, so it happens that you dance with someone that looks like he/she is a good dancer (from technical viewpoint) but it feels bad and opposite (ballroom people frequently don't understand that this is possible). Also, many people will indeed like more variety in dancing than technical perfection (as long as it's technically on some reasonable level) - this however applies to dances like swing, salsa etc and not that much to ballroom, where there isn't that much room for improvisation. So you have to find the best balance between quality of execution and number of figures/moves/patterns/improvisations for each partner

 

[stash]

I constantly worry about being boring when I'm leading. Instructors say that women are happy with well executed basics but I find their happiness lasts about 45 seconds.

Not true. I am a follower, and good clean basics (or cute newcomer basics) make me much happier than uncontrolled "cool" moves. This is especially true if I don't know you personally. My happiness only usually dies in social dancing when I am forced into positions that are 1) uncomfortable, 2) that could put me or you in danger because we don't know each other (ie dips), 3) when I am pulled off balance (though if I do it to myself it's my own dang fault).

Most of the time in the ballroom setting, I perfer to dance with newer leads, because they are just starting out and don't know how to purposely do those things listed above. Intermediate dancers tend to be more crazy and will be the first to start throwing their lead around because they can, and don't realize what they are doing to their followers.

 

[Bailamosdance]

I constantly worry about being boring when I'm leading. Instructors say that women are happy with well executed basics but I find their happiness lasts about 45 seconds.

The instructors are right, so perhaps it means that your 45 seconds of well executed basics reflect your need to do better. Use this as a 'wake up' and an incentive to really get good. I doubt many on this forum will let you slide by saying 'good enough' in reply to the unasked question 'how good do I have to be on the floor'...

 

[Siggav]

I think also there's a difference between a technically correct and clean but fairly "static" basic that just keeps on chugging through the song without changing and then some unpredictability and variation and musicality + space for improvisation while staying with basic moves.

I mean things like varying how big the steps are and how you dance them, maybe putting in stops, maybe changing direction while at the same time paying attention to the music and hitting breaks etc. Say with lindy hop or ECS you could stay with a simple 6 count basic (rock step, triple, triple) and vary all those things I mentioned, it's possible to get very playful with it, add in pass bys, change of place and tuck turns and that's pretty much my repertoire of moves as a lead (swing out and a circle as well for lindy) all very basic moves but totally enough to have a fun dance as long as you play with it and go with the music.

Which actually brings me to another point with difference between leading and following, I find that when I'm leading the music is more important to me than when I'm following. I mean it's always better having music I really like but when I'm leading I really need the music to be inspiring or I can kind of run out of steam and be back on autopilot while if I'm following the element of surprise of not knowing what's coming next can kind of make up for less than great music somehow.

 

[leee]

As for which one is more difficult I think they're probably roughly equal and with different challenges, you worry a lot more about being boring when you're leading while when following you have to master the fine art of putting your personality into the dance while still dancing with your partner and doing what they suggest + there is more balance, spins and turns required in general.

I hadn't even considered the question of repertoire! And as someone with poor balance, I figure that the number of patterns with spins and turns for follows would nudge following ahead in the difficulty sweepstakes.

Which actually brings me to another point with difference between leading and following, I find that when I'm leading the music is more important to me than when I'm following. I mean it's always better having music I really like but when I'm leading I really need the music to be inspiring or I can kind of run out of steam and be back on autopilot while if I'm following the element of surprise of not knowing what's coming next can kind of make up for less than great music somehow.

This last post, though it goes beyond the scope of my original question, is great, with this paragraph in particular offering an insight that for me is kind of novel, and which I hope to try out soon!

 

[FancyFeet]

I'm a follower that is, at least right now, finding leading easier (disclaimer: I have only just started to lead). I suspect that it's the whole wait-trust-listen aspect of following that makes it more difficult for me... I'm definitely more in my comfort zone when I am in charge

 

[vit]

Yeah ... I have yet to find a female leader with such leading skills that I would like to dance with if I were a girl (and there are several top level ballroom dancers and trainers in my town - male and female). But the same about the male followers ... it can be fun but that's about it (for me at least)

 

[cornutt]

I've done just enough following to understand the basic principles, without actually getting any good at it. I won't hazard a guess to the original question since I have no reference point for the follow-learning-lead aspect. As far as me learning to follow, I'm sure someone who leads me would say that I require a "heavy" lead -- I know that I don't pick up on a lot of the subtle stuff. And some of the styling follows are expected to do, it ain't happening.