The Forward Cross

Subliminal

Well-Known Member
I'm talking about when you ask the follower to step forward into a cross rather than backwards into the cross as usual. The way I first learned this was something to do after a forward rock step. My teacher and my awesome practice partner seem to not have difficulty following this, but when I've tried it with others, I get the "*** was that?" look, or just a normal step as they fight the cross lead.

Is this just one of those things some followers hate, or is there a way to make it easier? Thoughts?

Thanks.
 
I get the impression that it is not something which is commonly lead, or possibly even commonly taught, so I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of followers are just completely unfamiliar with it.

Also, you're a relatively beginning lead, so it might not be as clear as it truly needs to be/as clear as they need. Your practice partner is, of course, used to your leading so although it's a good start, it's not necessarily the most objective evaluation.

Will ponder more...
 
If I understand you, you're trying to lead your partner's R foot to tuck in behind her own L foot. Is that correct?

I think the lead for that would be quite subtle, and I'm sure that it is an uncommon move. Most followers would only see that movement a few times a year, if that. Most leaders would probably never try, or even think, to lead that.
 
I'm talking about when you ask the follower to step forward into a cross rather than backwards into the cross as usual. The way I first learned this was something to do after a forward rock step. My teacher and my awesome practice partner seem to not have difficulty following this, but when I've tried it with others, I get the "*** was that?" look, or just a normal step as they fight the cross lead.

Is this just one of those things some followers hate, or is there a way to make it easier? Thoughts?

Thanks.

Are you talking about leading a follower to move forward by bringing her back free foot forward to a place behind her front (supporting) foot?

Or the move where the follower is moving backwards by having front free foot travel backwards and around the supporting back foot and landing just behind the supporting leg in a cross?

Actually the first example is sorta like the latter half of the 2nd example, but it would help me to describe it if I knew whether you were coming from a place of trying to lead the follower to be be stepping forward or backwards to get into it.

In the first example, the move often stops there in the cross, or perhaps there's another little step forward with the front foot and another "bring the back foot to it". The direction of travel is forward (for the follower)

In the 2nd example, the move usually displaces the front foot which then unwraps around and takes another back step because the general direction of travel was backwards (for the follower) with a hesitation (you see this little sequence in milonga a lot)
 
I'm talking about when you ask the follower to step forward into a cross rather than backwards into the cross as usual. The way I first learned this was something to do after a forward rock step. My teacher and my awesome practice partner seem to not have difficulty following this, but when I've tried it with others, I get the "*** was that?" look, or just a normal step as they fight the cross lead.

Your awesome practice partner is probably someone who allows
her free leg to be free and never takes it over until absolutely necessary
for the next axis. And maintains a chest to chest connection at all times
without attempting to wriggle free and guess.

Without over thinking this, I had the same conundrum. The solution is
simpler than at first sight. However you lead a cross, whether diagonally
or rotationally, just reverse it. So for example if your lead into the cross
is a gentle anti-clockwise rotation, then rock-step out of the cross but take
your partner's free (back/right) leg to cross behind with a clockwise
rotation of your chest. I found leading it from a rockstep out of the cross
a big help and though I've never tried it in a walk in theory it should work.
That's if you can work out the confusion of a back to front cross while
walking backwards! With a good follower you have the harder job.

Is this just one of those things some followers hate, or is there a way to make it easier? Thoughts?

There are plenty of followers who don't really let the free leg go free
and who cannot cope with a rotating cross as in the ending of an ocho
cortado. Instead they twist themselves within the embrace and forward
ocho instead. You'll struggle to achieve a back crossing with someone like
that. You need a follower who really loves to follow and is at ease enough
to allow the unexpected and the improvised.
 
Peach: Thanks, any input is appreciated. ;)

AndaBien: Yes, that is correct. Follower's right foot tucked behind left, if her right foot is the one that is farther back. Yes, it's kind of subtle, but I learned it as a milonga step! So it must be possible.

Zoops: I'm talking about the first one, though when I first learned this step, I learned it as a milonga pattern that did both. First you would rockstep and forward cross her, she would weight change to her front foot, then you'd "unwrap" her foot around her, and recross.

JohnEm: That sounds plausible, that it requires a free leg. I think I lead the cross with a mix of alignment and rotation. Yeah, I think you're right, in theory you should be able to cross on either side, forward or backward by changing which way you set the step up and which way you rotate.
 
...Yes, it's kind of subtle, but I learned it as a milonga step! So it must be possible...

I agree that it's possible. As a milonga step it is probably more common. Still, if your partner is not already familiar with it, it may take her a moment to understand what you are leading.
 
Just like to chime in that ideally when you follow, you go where the lead takes you (or maybe that part of your body). Admittedly, that's a lot easier said that done. (And I'll add that I can say, in my limited experience of following in AT, I've had people tell me that I followed something they thought was difficult based on reactions of most of their partners. It's also where, I think, you get an idea who is dancing what they know their partner will do based on familiarity, and who isn't. )
Still, I am very familiar with that funny look you get.
As far as making it "easier", if you are introducing a new movement into the local vocabulary, I'd say you have to just lead it as well as you can, and accept the fact that most of your partners won't have a level of technique to get it right away. When partners you've tried it with start avoiding eye contact, it's time to drop it!
 
I will second Zoo that an added level of complexity, beyond practically never encountering it socially, is that it's a totally different technique than the usual cross.
 
Zoops: I'm talking about the first one, though when I first learned this step, I learned it as a milonga pattern that did both. First you would rockstep and forward cross her, she would weight change to her front foot, then you'd "unwrap" her foot around her, and recross.
.

So.. the trick is where the follower feels her weight is headed. Lets say you led to her step forward on her left. Now you want her to step forward with her right, but bring that right foot behind the left (the usual crossed position) and stop there (not displace the left foot)

The trick is she needs to feel her weight going slightly to her left so that she doesn't PASS the left foot while stepping forward with the free right foot. I would think the best way to achieve that would be to angle your upper body so that her left side is forward of her right as she takes the step, and also to travel slightly to her left. You could also perhaps help the angle and her "leftward" travel by doing a regular cross yourself for your step. (ie: she's bringing her right foot behind her left in a cross, and at the same time, you are bringing your left foot in front of your right in a cross)

The other trick is to have her feeling the somewhat "left" intention , yet not pass and then doing a forward ocho to her left to get there. For this issue, the timing is the important key. If you allow her to come straight forward til she gets to or near her "collected" position, chances are her right foot will want to pass the left and ocho, not hook behind it.

Because this is a somewhat "counter intuitive" move for followers, its up to you to lead her so that she can't do anything BUT hook behind. In other words, it has to be awkward for her to try to pass the standing leg with the free one since that would be her first inclination. OF course, she still might try to do so anyway if she thinks you're just leading badly. But a better follower hopefully has also learned not to sacrifice her own technique, axis, and posture just to compensate for a bad lead. She should go where its easy to go and if it isn't where you wanted her, you'll realize there's an problem and deal with it.

Too many followers go where they THINK the leader wants them, rather than where the leader actually ends up putting them, because they are trying to "help out" bad leads. That's why you have to be super-clear and firm when leading something that is unusual for the average follower. They'll figure you're doing something ELSE, but badly, and they'll try to "fix it".

One other reason a follower might not hook her back leg in this crossed position is that if you are NOT hooking or crossing, you may be taking a step yourself that is too long for her to stop in the hooked position. If she feels her weight is still being taken further forward than crossing will allow, she will either displace her front foot with the hooking one to step again, or quickly unwrap her hooking leg (without ever putting it down) to pass the other leg thinking that she was supposed to do that all along and somehow got it wrong.

So if all you do is come together with your feet, she may not feel enough leftward movement. If you step back, she may feel she is still being carried forward after she got hooked (and that will confuse her). I think the easiest way is to bring your foot into crossed front. Get a feel for that (and the angle of the bodies) and then work on varying where you place your foot as she hooks behind.
 
Re: forward cross

I'm talking about when you ask the follower to step forward into a cross rather than backwards into the cross as usual. The way I first learned this was something to do after a forward rock step....

Hi Sub, am not really sure, what you mean, bc. the first part of a forward ocho (with the torsion) is called forward crossing.

Is it true that you mean "the" cross, but done to the other side? The lead of a cross (done to what ever side you want) is done by a shift of the walking lane (track).
 
Is it true that you mean "the" cross, but done to the other side? The lead of a cross (done to what ever side you want) is done by a shift of the walking lane (track).
This is a very interesting comment, and I fully agree with it. The exact same technique can be used to guide any cross, it's just a matter of practice. Which leads to one of the most interesting questions in tango (I think) : how do I lead a plain old regular forward cross? :)
 

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