swinginstyle
New Member
good to hear
The lead for tandem/behind the back-charleston
- Thread starter blue
- Start date
Tandem charleston still makes me frustrated. If we agree to do it, or if I conciosly realise that this is a situation where I might be led into tandem charleston (we just failed in once and now my right hand is in his left, looks like the setup for another try) then it works fine. Most of the time when I social dance, though, I am not in "move recognition mode". I have no time for that. Of the moves I follow when social dancing I have been formally taught a minor part; if I tried to social dance based on the recognition of moves I'd be lost.
When we fail to start the tandem charleston several times I occasionallys get these comments from the guy like "oh, I thougth you had done that one before" or "you obviously have no clue about this one". Then I usually feel like "hey, I have no clue about more than half of the moves I follow. Still, I follow them. Are you sure you can lead this move? I doubt it" but of course I don't say that. I am not sure how much my not getting into tandem charleston is my fault, and how much the leaders'. I do get into tandem charleston without conciously thinking about tandem charleston sometimes, but most of the times not. As I already said, I have this feeling that many people around here are taught tandem charleston in a stage where they base their dancing more or less on "move recognition", as their lead/follow skills are not yet that great. Otherwise, I do not see how it is possible that some leaders try and do tandem charleston while keeping my hands completely still, and being surprised when I don't make it! You see, myself I more or less skipped this "dancing by move recognition" stage.
Why this obsession with tandem charleston in the first place? Well... I plan to take classes at another place, having two schools to pick classes from. They are much bigger on lindy, and offer way more classes. There will be a little test where they decide in what level to place us people from outside; their own students are judged in the end of each course if they are allowed to proceed to next level or not. From their description of their levels of courses, I realise that if I "can not do" tandem charleston, if I look like "she has not done it" I will probably be put in a lower level class than I actually deserve - and I don't suppose I will be dancing with very great leaders during this test. Am I aiming higher than I deserve? Maybe, but I don't think do. I have been spending the last four or five months of classes with people generally below my level and I feel it is time for a change.
Probably, there is also a part explanation involving that I find it slightly uncomfortable having my dance partner behind me, in slightly bent over-position. Maybe some of you remember me saying that the ability of a leader I value the most, is the ability to make me trust him. Quite possibly I get into tandem charleston automatically with the leaders I really trust, but not with the rest. In a way, on the social dance floor I don't mind at all not getting into tandem charleston, as long as the leaders don't complain and try to "teach" me how to do it. But for that test...
I wonder what it is I need to do. Hardwire the charleston arm swings, by doing more charleston on my own? Get a training partner and practise tandem charleston so this individual move, from the entrance to the actual start of the charleston, is a little package as hardwired in my brain as the charleston itself? Probably both would be good. Training in doing a little more "move recognition" while dancing will probably hamper my social dancing, but getting me better prepared for this test. Priorities...
Indeed, taking this lower level course will probably make me fit to manage tandem charleston with the leads taught at the same place. I kind of doubt that should have to take a six lessons course, though.
When we fail to start the tandem charleston several times I occasionallys get these comments from the guy like "oh, I thougth you had done that one before" or "you obviously have no clue about this one". Then I usually feel like "hey, I have no clue about more than half of the moves I follow. Still, I follow them. Are you sure you can lead this move? I doubt it" but of course I don't say that. I am not sure how much my not getting into tandem charleston is my fault, and how much the leaders'. I do get into tandem charleston without conciously thinking about tandem charleston sometimes, but most of the times not. As I already said, I have this feeling that many people around here are taught tandem charleston in a stage where they base their dancing more or less on "move recognition", as their lead/follow skills are not yet that great. Otherwise, I do not see how it is possible that some leaders try and do tandem charleston while keeping my hands completely still, and being surprised when I don't make it! You see, myself I more or less skipped this "dancing by move recognition" stage.
Why this obsession with tandem charleston in the first place? Well... I plan to take classes at another place, having two schools to pick classes from. They are much bigger on lindy, and offer way more classes. There will be a little test where they decide in what level to place us people from outside; their own students are judged in the end of each course if they are allowed to proceed to next level or not. From their description of their levels of courses, I realise that if I "can not do" tandem charleston, if I look like "she has not done it" I will probably be put in a lower level class than I actually deserve - and I don't suppose I will be dancing with very great leaders during this test. Am I aiming higher than I deserve? Maybe, but I don't think do. I have been spending the last four or five months of classes with people generally below my level and I feel it is time for a change.
Probably, there is also a part explanation involving that I find it slightly uncomfortable having my dance partner behind me, in slightly bent over-position. Maybe some of you remember me saying that the ability of a leader I value the most, is the ability to make me trust him. Quite possibly I get into tandem charleston automatically with the leaders I really trust, but not with the rest. In a way, on the social dance floor I don't mind at all not getting into tandem charleston, as long as the leaders don't complain and try to "teach" me how to do it. But for that test...
I wonder what it is I need to do. Hardwire the charleston arm swings, by doing more charleston on my own? Get a training partner and practise tandem charleston so this individual move, from the entrance to the actual start of the charleston, is a little package as hardwired in my brain as the charleston itself? Probably both would be good. Training in doing a little more "move recognition" while dancing will probably hamper my social dancing, but getting me better prepared for this test. Priorities...
Indeed, taking this lower level course will probably make me fit to manage tandem charleston with the leads taught at the same place. I kind of doubt that should have to take a six lessons course, though.
There are a bunch of people on video who bust into tandem Charleston at www.dcswingdancing.com . N o n e of the leaders hold the arms still during that. If they don't do the arms, it is impossible for the follower to know when to start doing tandem charleston. Side-by-side charleston is the one that doesn't use arms. The teachers and the people in your scene need to acknowledge this difference between side-by-side and tandem.
Oh yes, it is possible if I recognise from the entering into tandem that this is tandem charleston, and there is no other step I do with my partner behind me.jdavidb said:
I would assume that every lindy community around the globe has some "habits" in the less experienced layers, that work only because everybody knows how the rest of the people do it. If you ask followers who dance not only with excellent leaders what kind of stuff they encounter, maybe you would be surprised.
The holding arms still was an extreme example, and probably not a very advanced dancer. Still, no matter what you are teaching - as long as it is a physical activity - there are errors you accept as "stuff you fix later". What these things are, vary dependent on your method. If you don't accept that people do stuff kind of half-bad for a while, you will be very hard on your students, too hard for most of them... probably some won't learn just because they never gain confidence. So you have to cut some slack for a while. Some will keep bad habits, that is difficult to do something about. Some will stop taking classes after a point, and never fix these things.
So, I see confusion of how to use the arms in tandem charleston as a result of not hard-wiring the arms work before you start doing tandem. But then, maybe it is the tandem that makes people realise they have to use their arms...
Then again, maybe I come back in a year and realise my description and interpretation of the folks around me was all wrong.
that's right. arms need to be hard-wired before you start learning tandem. if you do solo lindy charleston it looks and feels better if the arms move in opposition. side by side position inhibits such movement of the arms, but tandem position doesn't. as a side benefit, the movement of the arms in tandem helps synch up the partners, in particular, adding another cue for the inital rock step with the left.
Flat Shoes
New Member
It is possible, and sometimes fun, to do double tempo arms when in tandem charleston.
If you're a lead... try it. 8)
If you're a lead... try it. 8)
normalized
New Member
All things being equal, the tandem charleston is a problematic move. On paper, the lead and arms things should work, but in actual real dance scenarios, recognition of it varies from follower to follower. I realize I could probably lead it better but naturally the more experienced follows just fall right into it while the less experienced requires a more prolonged "sync up" time or just plain coaxing to do. There are also many, may ways to go into it some of which are very, very quick and would (I imagine) test the follow to see how she can get into it. I usually do the pronouned 10 count into it and make it unusually deliberate so that there could be less ambiguity as to what I'm leading up to.
Often than not, it ends up being the move that you don't lead if you have any inkling that the follow is not so familiar with basic charleston. Despite what others are saying, I know what blue is talking about. Also the fact that the leader is behind makes it hard or visual cues to work. I've had more than a few follow say to me "THAT move, I don't know what the leader is doing because he's BEHIND me!!!" I'd have to agree with Blue the tandem does require a certain "recognition" factor, probably more so than a tuck turn or send out which can be led without much recognition.
I just learned the "hack saw" or "crazy legs" last night and I anticipate having the same problems with follows who were not in the class, good times!
Often than not, it ends up being the move that you don't lead if you have any inkling that the follow is not so familiar with basic charleston. Despite what others are saying, I know what blue is talking about. Also the fact that the leader is behind makes it hard or visual cues to work. I've had more than a few follow say to me "THAT move, I don't know what the leader is doing because he's BEHIND me!!!" I'd have to agree with Blue the tandem does require a certain "recognition" factor, probably more so than a tuck turn or send out which can be led without much recognition.
I just learned the "hack saw" or "crazy legs" last night and I anticipate having the same problems with follows who were not in the class, good times!
swinginstyle
New Member
Here's my problem with tandem charleston intros. First, I can lead them, but if my partner doesn't get that they need to fill the connection, forget about it. I can do the same move I described on the first page with various follows, but some don't get it. I will lead those first 6 counts as best as possible, but if the follow doesn't weight herself on that 6th count, it gets that much more difficult to make it a successful move. I think the follow has to recognize part of it.
One difference for me is where the guy is bringing me in at. If it's to his side, I know we won't be doing tandem. If he keeps me in front and leads me to face my back toward him, I know we're probably doing it. Also, it's the lead's job to adjust their footwork for the follow. Right now, the only exception would be that intro I described earlier. There, the guy leads the follow to "run, run, kick step", thereby placing the follow on the correct foot.
One difference for me is where the guy is bringing me in at. If it's to his side, I know we won't be doing tandem. If he keeps me in front and leads me to face my back toward him, I know we're probably doing it. Also, it's the lead's job to adjust their footwork for the follow. Right now, the only exception would be that intro I described earlier. There, the guy leads the follow to "run, run, kick step", thereby placing the follow on the correct foot.
Somebody wants to know how it went?blue said:
They put me in the level I wanted. I have no clue what they actually looked at. Most of the people did the test to get to take a higher level than the one I was going for, so the leaders I danced with were in my view pretty good; I can assume that most things that went wrong was my fault. I did tandem charleston once, and I think I failed it a few times - at least I failed something that could have been a tandem charleston attempt, I am not sure. I know I tried to "guess" it once, and found that was a mistake - that was not what he intended. He must have understood what I was trying to do though, as he led a tandem charleston after that - the one time I made it... then I decided trying to recognise the move setup was not good, and skipped the idea. I don't know how much all of this added to the judging of my ability at all, or if the two people judging us happened to see that at all. Probably my tandem charleston obsession has been all in vain. Sooner or later I'd better work on it a bit. I guess there will be opportunities.
bjp22tango
Active Member
I think Tandem Charleston with the follow in front has a lot going against it from the start.
Many ladies feel VERY uncomfortable with the leader hovering over them in the hunched position. In that case it makes any weighted connection between the dancers fly right out the window. The follows start worrying about where the leader is rather than relaxing into the frame and connection. Then they can't feel a lead, even if there is one there, so they start trying to figure out the move themselves, further taking away any chance the leader has of leading it. The leader doesn't learn what he has to do to move the follow and the connection just goes from bad to worse.
We have to remember that the people who originally started dancing these moves JUST MADE THEM UP. They were exaggerating movements they already did when dancing.
The arm movements are just exaggerations of how our arms move when we walk, they swing in opposition to the same side leg. Left arm forward left foot back, right foot forward right arm back and vica versa. This is for balance. We do is unconciously until we have to exaggerate it, and then we get brain freeze :shock:
We live in a time when mens and womens roles are more equal and women aren't as programmed to totally trust the man, and men aren't totally programmed to take the lead. It does have an effect on the connection between dancers.
In tandem charleston the follow has to totally commit to the leaders frame and mimic it, has to connect with the hands (downward pressure for balance) and has to be able to balance herself while doing exaggerated leaning, kicking movements. The leader has to initiate these movements with no hesitation whatsoever, and with the exaggerated arm movements and balanced lean mentioned above.
I don't think the arm movements are something that can be ignored at the beginning of teaching the move, then added later. They are an integral part of the lead, telling the follow how deep a step or kick to take, where to step, and when to turn (there are many variations on the basic tandem charleston that take the partners side to side even as the leader stays behind the follower)
The sooner the follow can trust the partner and keep her connection with the leader, the sooner the leader will learn what it takes to make a lead readable.
We didn't grow up at the time that Chargleston was the rage, so we didn't learn it before learning Lindy. I would assume most of the original dancers could Charleston without thinking about it, so that turning it into Tandem Charleston was just a jazzier variation.
We have a handicap, but that shouldn't stop us from being comfortable with the move.
My suggestion would be for dancers to learn both versions of the side by side charleston, left foot rock back to start and right foot rock back to start, using the arm movements to counterbalance.
Then start exaggerating the movements of the basic with deep leans into the standing legs to get used to the balance needed for different degrees of lean.
Then practice really moving the charleston pattern backward and forward, taking big steps then small steps, again keeping balanced.
Then put a hop in each standing foot, then take it out.
I would repeat all this with the other foot starting the rock step.
When I was confident I could keep my balance in just about any charleston situation, I would look for someone to start practicing the tandem versions with.
Many ladies feel VERY uncomfortable with the leader hovering over them in the hunched position. In that case it makes any weighted connection between the dancers fly right out the window. The follows start worrying about where the leader is rather than relaxing into the frame and connection. Then they can't feel a lead, even if there is one there, so they start trying to figure out the move themselves, further taking away any chance the leader has of leading it. The leader doesn't learn what he has to do to move the follow and the connection just goes from bad to worse.
We have to remember that the people who originally started dancing these moves JUST MADE THEM UP. They were exaggerating movements they already did when dancing.
The arm movements are just exaggerations of how our arms move when we walk, they swing in opposition to the same side leg. Left arm forward left foot back, right foot forward right arm back and vica versa. This is for balance. We do is unconciously until we have to exaggerate it, and then we get brain freeze :shock:
We live in a time when mens and womens roles are more equal and women aren't as programmed to totally trust the man, and men aren't totally programmed to take the lead. It does have an effect on the connection between dancers.
In tandem charleston the follow has to totally commit to the leaders frame and mimic it, has to connect with the hands (downward pressure for balance) and has to be able to balance herself while doing exaggerated leaning, kicking movements. The leader has to initiate these movements with no hesitation whatsoever, and with the exaggerated arm movements and balanced lean mentioned above.
I don't think the arm movements are something that can be ignored at the beginning of teaching the move, then added later. They are an integral part of the lead, telling the follow how deep a step or kick to take, where to step, and when to turn (there are many variations on the basic tandem charleston that take the partners side to side even as the leader stays behind the follower)
The sooner the follow can trust the partner and keep her connection with the leader, the sooner the leader will learn what it takes to make a lead readable.
We didn't grow up at the time that Chargleston was the rage, so we didn't learn it before learning Lindy. I would assume most of the original dancers could Charleston without thinking about it, so that turning it into Tandem Charleston was just a jazzier variation.
We have a handicap, but that shouldn't stop us from being comfortable with the move.
My suggestion would be for dancers to learn both versions of the side by side charleston, left foot rock back to start and right foot rock back to start, using the arm movements to counterbalance.
Then start exaggerating the movements of the basic with deep leans into the standing legs to get used to the balance needed for different degrees of lean.
Then practice really moving the charleston pattern backward and forward, taking big steps then small steps, again keeping balanced.
Then put a hop in each standing foot, then take it out.
I would repeat all this with the other foot starting the rock step.
When I was confident I could keep my balance in just about any charleston situation, I would look for someone to start practicing the tandem versions with.
bjp22tango said:
I feel comfortable doing the tandem charleston with... maybe 50 % of the guys I dance with. Not more. With the other 50% I don't mind not being able to do it, unless I have to prove I can do it...
Something that does happen if you are not comfortable, is you uncounciuosly don't bend forward but tend to stand more straight up. If the leader is sensitive he realises "this was not a good idea, let's skip it". If he is not so sensitive - and hardly anyone is before they are very comfortable with their own dancing - he might ask you to bend over more. That is like... yikes!
bjp22tango said:
I am not sure women trusted men more in the old days, actually. In practice they had to, but that does not mean they actually did trust them emotionally. I think we have a better possibility to trust each other today... OK, this was off topic.
bjp22tango said:
I think you've got a major point here. If we let the dance evolve "naturally", and did not care about preserving the "original" dance maybe we would see a lot less charleston in lindy dancing and esp. tandem charleston. I would guess that you do not see charleston in ECS. Am I wrong?